FSO Rules

[Dantoo]

Seems everybody in this thread overlooked the 25mph headwind Axis had to fly into.  Here's an idea.  Reverse the wind direction, Axis get to their targets way earlier, Axis gets to complain about Allies being late next week.

At that point we're all even and we can go back to normal grumbling.

[Rodent57]

Normally, I stay out of these 'discussions', but in this case ... I just can't.

Q, I led the 110s you are complaining about, and have the film if you'd like to see it  {UPDATE--I sent it}.  Simple fact is that your P40s and Spits were dogging and engaged us at the turn-in WELL west (About 6 mins prior to target) of the Target at T+54 (You even had us in a sandwhich).   What we DIDN'T do is dump our Ordnance and engage you ... instead, we stayed within the rules and pressed ahead to, and attacked, the target as required.  Further, whomever it was that was leading the defense took a portion of your force and dove them to the deck in what appeared to be a belief that the heavies MUST be low... {You personally dove from 26.7K down to 6K starting at roughly T+56 ... I presume assuming that there must be low bombers -- but that's just me guessing).

Since our inter-squad communications on the offense were basically non-existent (Not our escorts--they were perfect), we failed to link up with the HE-111s as we had intended. 

As mentioned by someone else, the headwind made it virtually impossible to get to the target any quicker than we did (I cut 3 legs short to make it by the required T+60 as it was.

... NOW, I'm sorry that you failed to intercept us properly given the 75 mile heads-up on our location .... and I'm sorry that you weren't able to slaughter more of us ... but I am NOT sorry that we bother to understand the rules, physics and math!

(14) 110s x 2 bombs each ... is the full compliment that we were able to muster.  We did, we attacked, and then we did our best to kill those of you that bothered to come up <S>.  Those that didn't... Thank you--I doubt I'd have made it home otherwise. 

Simply put, I didn't like the set up either...but I greatly appreciate the long hours of effort, thought and creativity that went into developing the scenario. 
...
PS  Leave the CMs alone ... it is a thankless function that they do for us.  Instead of complaining... feel free to volunteer your time and make things better.

Stepping down from soap box now.
 
Cheers,

- RODENT57
 

[j500ss]

Nevermind

[qbert55ca]

I never get involved. that should tell you something

Sir, I cannot prove, and therefore will not continue the time debate. All I know was you dropped more than 15min after the 45min announcement was made.

My big peeve is using the 110's at that altitude even though you were allowed to according to the rule but and I quote this from a CM, "that's not staying within the spirit of the FSO". It was a clever move but as I had not dressed down a few months back about taking initiative and not staying with the aforementioned quote I probably would have just been pissed and not really pissed for the double standards.

It's the changing of the standards of the bombers, If the main purpose of the plane is to bomb as in your case then they should have been restricted like all other bombers.

None of this is on you Rodent I'm more than happy to fly you wing any time you need Dux.<S>

qbert

[Spikes]

If they are restricted like the bombers, they should also be able to fly wing with a lead bomber and drop at altitude when the lead bomber drops, similar to a P-38 with a droop snoot. No double standards, eh?

[j500ss]

Qbert,

IF,  the CM that set this month up is stating that the 110's broke the spirit of bomber the rule.   He needs to tell me NOW!!

I set that mission up, and I set it up staying within all the rules of FSO, and the "special rules" the CM laid out for this month.

IF, the hit on the strat was WAY past T+60 as you stated, again I want to know about it NOW!  This info also needs to come from a CM.

I don't think that is asking much at all really.

I do most of the planning for G3, I got orders from Cic, flew a few routes, and went with what I felt was going to give my squad the BEST chance for a successful mission, and survival.   That is what we STRIVE for...... MISSION SUCCESS!!

Two planes in this setup, were from day 1 listed as FIGHTER-BOMBERS by the setup CM, the Bf110C and the A-20.   Everyone should have known that, and assume that regardless of alt, the possibility of them carrying ords was there.

Any infraction of the time rules, should be made known here and now in my opinion.   If rules were broken, everyone should be aware and NOT have to wait till scoring at the end of the month.  It should always be that way! 

No member of the community should have to be at this point asking questions about "what if"  or "is this allowed" in this thread.

Spell it out now, eliminate any confusion....... Please and thank you.

You don't get pulled over for a speeding ticket and have a cop say,  I'll mail ya the ticket and fine in a few weeks, till then have fun 

At the moment as I see it, the CM's holding this info from the community is only going to add to more confusion.  Lack of crystal clear clarification only hurts all of us.

Inform us, and we will understand.

Jdog
G3 Ops

[Squire]

LilMak, I believe the intent of the rule is to have all bombs dropped by T+60

That is correct.

Gents. If you roll a bomb carrying plane...be sure you drop on your target by T+60. That's it. You have an hour. You have an hour if the strike package is 4 planes and you have an hour if there are 3 strike packages of 16 planes each.

You have an hour.

[Snork]

This does not read like "discussing the situation":
It sounds kind of argumentative and a bit snarky, making it sound like you're blaming the design on the numbers imbalance and that there was little effort put into it by the Admin.

In this case "snarky" is in the eye of the beholder. I did not intend it that way. At any rate, sorry for giving that impression.

[LilMak]

That is correct.

Gents. If you roll a bomb carrying plane...be sure you drop on your target by T+60. That's it. You have an hour. You have an hour if the strike package is 4 planes and you have an hour if there are 3 strike packages of 16 planes each.

You have an hour.

That's what I always understood. Glad we got to clear that up. I hope we don't have to spell it out in small words in the future.

[Rodent57]

I never get involved. that should tell you something

Sir, I cannot prove, and therefore will not continue the time debate. All I know was you dropped more than 15min after the 45min announcement was made.

My big peeve is using the 110's at that altitude even though you were allowed to according to the rule but and I quote this from a CM, "that's not staying within the spirit of the FSO". It was a clever move but as I had not dressed down a few months back about taking initiative and not staying with the aforementioned quote I probably would have just been pissed and not really pissed for the double standards.

It's the changing of the standards of the bombers, If the main purpose of the plane is to bomb as in your case then they should have been restricted like all other bombers.

None of this is on you Rodent I'm more than happy to fly you wing any time you need Dux.<S>

qbert

Q,

G3-MF will gladly fly with DUX on any mission  <S>.

NOT wanting to stir this up any more, but we were absolutely within the rules for attacking. 
- Altitude for Twin engine level bombers "with formations set on" is 21K. 
- 110s and A20s are considered fighter bombers (Not level bombers)
           ...and therefore have no altitude restrictions  {If I could have, I'd have been at 40K ... but God's Breath shoves you down at 30K}

As you can see on the freeze frame of my cockpit at bomb release (sent via email)  .. Mickey's Big hands were on the 7, and the 12 (T+60).  Bombs detonated approximately 21 secs later.  (Still prior to T+61) ...

and now over to New York for an instant replay official's interpretation...

 

We did our best to comply with the FSO rules as we ALWAYS do.

I'm done defending our honor.

Hope to see you ALL in the next frame!

- Rodent57


 



 

[captain1ma]

if the rule is T+60 for all bombs, then id suggest dialing back the wind for bomber altitudes, so they have a fair chance of getting to target. its bad enough trying to hit a target and dodge pesky fighters without having to fight the wind too! keep the wind up for fighter altitudes, let the bombers sail free and clear. my 4 cents ( I already had something to say)

another thought. be careful what you wish for, not having enough time for alt, may encourage more NOE missions.

[Squire]

The designers are responsible for making sure that aircraft can actually carry out the missions. Point taken though and I agree that care has to be taken with settings like wind and so forth. 

[Dantoo]

That is correct.

Gents. If you roll a bomb carrying plane...be sure you drop on your target by T+60. That's it. You have an hour. You have an hour if the strike package is 4 planes and you have an hour if there are 3 strike packages of 16 planes each.

You have an hour.

That is not correct.  Per the other thread running on the same topic.

[Squire]

The rule has been explained now. Thoroughly I would say.