Author Topic: The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience  (Read 614 times)

Offline Sparks

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« on: February 18, 2001, 05:35:00 AM »
I am not one to normally voice a negative opinion of an HTC product - certainly the service to the MA community in terms of stability and progress is second to none - but the Terrain Editor is, for me at least, one of those pieces of software that is simply too much hassle. The key part for me was the ability to grab real life geographic areas from Mapmaker but I have yet to make this work in Version 1. I realise that the TE is maybe a fringe product for primarily non-paying customers but then if it is not to be supported then why release it to other than a select group of maybe CM staff or approved terrain builders ??

Well I'm giving up - shame but there aren't enough hours to do everything.

Sparks

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Sparks:
The key part for me was the ability to grab real life geographic areas from Mapmaker but I have yet to make this work in Version 1.

What seems to be the problem?  The mapmaker comes with a readme, as well as the website has good instructions how to use it: http://www.cris.com/~reaper/mapmaker/

Can you be more specific on what causes you troubles?


 
Quote
I realise that the TE is maybe a fringe product for primarily non-paying customers but then if it is not to be supported then why release it to other than a select group of maybe CM staff or approved terrain builders ??
[/b]

I believe a terrain editor at all is better than nothing. After all, it is free!! As an evidence to all this, we have plenty of good maps used in H2H all the time!  The fact that more terrains have not been submitted to HTC for official use is real pity though.  But that is not the fault of HTC, is it?  

Regarding support: the TE has been patched as soon as new features have come out that the old editor didn't support -such as the navy. Regarding the user interface, I agree that it could be better, there's maybe one reason people find it hard to use.  But by following the documents I've managed to get good results with the editor.

The TE works for me at least, as well as most others, I assume?  Dont forget that HTC uses the editor themselves too! (maybe a slightly different version?)

Please, give us more details, I'm sure there's many people here who'd like to help!

Camo


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[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 02-18-2001).]
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Offline Sparks

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2001, 05:01:00 PM »
Thanks for the concern Camo - I have posted a more detailed description in my earlier thread.

Sparks

Offline NUTTZ

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2001, 05:52:00 PM »
Are you on the CM team? Cause most of us are not, and kinda left out to fend for ourselves. I've submitted 2 maps to HTC months ago ( both unfinished) with alot of questions. Never got any answers.

Not to be negative, but i couldn't get the mapmaker program to work, forged threw the TE with MOST questions gone unanswered. Still i made maps, Most undone becuase I can't get the feilds to work right.

I just don't want to see the new blood of TE users fall to the wayside like i did. I still have fun with the TE making H2H maps for my old squad. One good note, i see they don't have to wait weeks for a reply now.

NUTTZ

 
Quote
Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage:
 I believe a terrain editor at all is better than nothing. After all, it is free!! As an evidence to all this, we have plenty of good maps used in H2H all the time!  The fact that more terrains have not been submitted to HTC for official use is real pity though.  But that is not the fault of HTC, is it?    

Regarding support: the TE has been patched as soon as new features have come out that the old editor didn't support -such as the navy. Regarding the user interface, I agree that it could be better, there's maybe one reason people find it hard to use.  But by following the documents I've managed to get good results with the editor.

The TE works for me at least, as well as most others, I assume?  Dont forget that HTC uses the editor themselves too! (maybe a slightly different version?)

Please, give us more details, I'm sure there's many people here who'd like to help!

Camo



Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2001, 07:03:00 PM »
Rgr Sparks, I answered there.  


 
Quote
Originally posted by NUTTZ:
Are you on the CM team? Cause most of us are not, and kinda left out to fend for ourselves. I've submitted 2 maps to HTC months ago ( both unfinished) with alot of questions. Never got any answers.

Yep, I'm on the CM team.  Been working with clouds so far.    

There are pretty good docs for the TE. I've managed very well with them, and what they don't cover, I've managed to solve with a little trial&error.  Luckily my TE has run without any troubles, except maybe a few occasional dumps to desktop.  And those don't matter much, since I save often.

If you're having hardware related troubles with the TE, there's little others can do except give some pointers.   Even though I'm not an expert with the TE, I'm always available for help, with the limited resources I have.

Not trying to defend HTC here, but I do understand that their emphasis is on developing AH itself and not the TE.  In my experience the TE works fine, I'm sorry if others are having troubles.  If I run into trouble and possibly find a solution, I'll be happy to post it here!

What kind of terrains did you make, which you submitted to HTC?

 
Quote
Not to be negative, but i couldn't get the mapmaker program to work, forged threw the TE with MOST questions gone unanswered. Still i made maps, Most undone becuase I can't get the feilds to work right.
[/b]

I haven't run into the field number bug, but isn't there some solution to that?  I think I've seen many posts about that here...

I don't think there's so many people playing with the editor... Might be one reason for the lack of answers.  Like I said, I haven't had any real trouble with the TE, so its kinda hard for me to help you since I don't know what you're talking about.  

Good luck Nuttz, I hope your problems get solved!

Camo
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Offline Vermillion

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2001, 07:32:00 PM »
All I can say is that I have run the TE with great success, with only the occaisonal dump to desktop problem. And if you save frequently, thats rarely a problem. And from what I have seen the dump to desktop problem occurs when you switch back and forth from object editing to the terrain editing feature. So just save before you switch editing types.

I don't know where you think the CM's get special preferential treatment on advice from HTC about terrains, since we don't. Just like Camo said we have figured it out by trial and error, and sharing information on this BBS (in these public forums, not our private one).

The only time I have gotten "private" advice was when I submitted to SuperFly my Med terrain, and he sent me an email back saying X, Y, and Z, are broken, fix them. I fixed them and resubmitted it. Did the same process of "this is broke fix it" one more time and that is that.

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Offline NUTTZ

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2001, 08:01:00 PM »
Verm, i never said the CM team got preferencial treatment, In all reality you should. My reference to: us on the outside looking in...
I have been posting in the TE editor since August of last year, in a few weeks it will be 8 months of posting textures, and asking questions. In that time i've seen people come and go, many discusted with the TE  (including myself) and many post went unanswered. Only AFTER I stamped my feet, and took a cyber fit, I got some responce, That is the tip of the iceberg, I know many others that tried the TE and gave up without EVER posting in this forum. I just don't want to see potential mapmakers give up disgusted. The TE is buggy, nobody can disclaim that, but also it is workable.

Me, I'm an in your face kinda guy, strickly meat and potatoes, I call them like i see them. I played with the TE to make some nice textures and maps, and was in it for the long haul, I gave up many
times and came back many times, and created some beautiful terrains to fly in. I've read here and in the main forum NOBODY submitted maps, thats where I get confused. Maybe I got too excited because i thought i had something nice to share.


NUTTZ

 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
All I can say is that I have run the TE with great success, with only the occaisonal dump to desktop problem. And if you save frequently, thats rarely a problem. And from what I have seen the dump to desktop problem occurs when you switch back and forth from object editing to the terrain editing feature. So just save before you switch editing types.

I don't know where you think the CM's get special preferential treatment on advice from HTC about terrains, since we don't. Just like Camo said we have figured it out by trial and error, and sharing information on this BBS (in these public forums, not our private one).

The only time I have gotten "private" advice was when I submitted to SuperFly my Med terrain, and he sent me an email back saying X, Y, and Z, are broken, fix them. I fixed them and resubmitted it. Did the same process of "this is broke fix it" one more time and that is that.




[This message has been edited by NUTTZ (edited 02-18-2001).]

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2001, 06:55:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by NUTTZ:
I played with the TE to make some nice textures and maps, and was in it for the long haul, I gave up many
times and came back many times, and created some beautiful terrains to fly in. I've read here and in the main forum NOBODY submitted maps, thats where I get confused. Maybe I got too excited because i thought i had something nice to share.



As far as I know, only Verm (cmed), Redwing (europe) and one other CM have submitted maps to HTC for MA/SEA approval.

I've tried a few of your terrains, but atleast these have been of the H2H-furball type. Frankly - unsuitable for MA/SEA use.  Have you made other, atleast 128x128, terrains that have the necessary number of fields and strat elements to qualify them for "official" HTC use?

With your texturing skills, I'm sure the terrains would look fabulous.  

I know that terrain editing in AH is a long and tedious project, thats why most projects don't finish, I suppose.  I give a big <S> to the guys who've had the nerve to finish their terrains!  I know I haven't.  Yet.  

Camo
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Offline NUTTZ

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2001, 11:39:00 AM »
Camo, about the "official" strats and number of feilds, and size, THAT was one of my questions.  Your right my maps are NOWHERE near MA usable, because i don't know what size, feild numbers, and strats are needed. What makes an MA map official, what is needed as far as what was mentioned?

Now we are getting somewhere.

NUTTZ

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2001, 12:49:00 PM »
My guess is as good as anybody elses, but here are my assumptions anyway.  

Start with a large enough map. The first beta map was 128x128 miles, the current MA is 256x256.  The central mediterranean SEA is 512x512 miles.  Personally, I'd like to see a tight action packed 128x128 again in the MA. Imho, a 512x512 map might be a bit too big for MA use, but I'm sure there are many who disagree.

For MA use, the terrain should be suitable for the 3-country war.  Whether you do it by placing the fields in a certain way or by the terrain (like in the beta map), is up to you I guess.  Once you have decided what kind of a terrain you're going to have, print out a sketch of the map and plan how you're going to align everything there.

Fields should be positioned carefully, with the vehicle spawn points thought out.  Also, combining the strat objects into the map is important, so that all countries have a level starting point after the reset.  So that one country doesn't have all fields elevated while the other countries' fields are on a large plain. But on the other hand, a terrain like that could be interesting.  

All countries should have maybe about 10 airfields and then vehicle fields in the mix. And don't forget the ports if you have water in the map.  Strat targets include city, HQ, fuel refinery, training complex, ammo factory, radar factory and flak factory.  The limit for the fields is 64 for one terrain.  So thats a maximum of 21.33 fields per country. The maximum amount of objects is 4000.  Including all airfield-, strat- etc objects.  

And the most interesting aspect of the terrains is of course the CLOUDS!    Read my instructions how to do them here:
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum55/HTML/000090.html  

The amount of clouds in the HTC terrains has been 256.  So that might be a good rule of thumb how many clouds to have in a terrain, visible at one time.

Then there's your favourite subject - textures.  They should look good while being good for gameplay.  Photorealism isn't something to look for, but a realistic enough look in the game, imho.  If it looks too "polished", thats not good.  

Once you've finished the map, its ready to be submitted to HTC for last minute checks and evaluation.  I guess it is best that you really get the map finished and play tested in a closed circle before submitting it to HTC.  When its 99% done, I'm sure they're more eager to help finish it.  

Making a map is quite a big project.  But after you're finished the terrain work itself and decided where to put the fields, it will be quite straightforward just to slab the objects there.  Especially if you're using the default MA airfields and strat object that come with the editor.

Good luck!

Camo
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Offline NUTTZ

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2001, 01:37:00 PM »
Thanx Camo, This is exactly what i was looking for, Your honest and saying you don't know but offer suggestions that i can definately use. I appreciate your post. I finally got the mapmaker to work, not the way it is supposed to, but I did get it to work another way. I have tons of tiles so thats not a problem, I did a few greyscales for a map and got them to work in the TE,, WOW WOW WOW what a time saver <S> AKwabbit  for the mapmaker. I can now make the clipboard map to match my terrain OK, so i have tiles and clipboard map and elevation files..... Now to tackle the feild placement.

NUTTZ

Offline GrinBird

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2001, 06:11:00 PM »
... and another thing Nuttz - Please use version numbers. Everytime you test a new version, give it a new file name that reflects the version number eg. PAC001.res, PAC002.rez, and dont forget to put your name o  the clipboard map.

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Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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The Terrain Editor has tarnished my HTC experience
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2001, 08:30:00 AM »
Excellent point GB!  For example in H2H, if you have updated the terrain, those who have not specifically updated the new version, will see the old one, while you see the new one. So you can understand what a hassle that might develop into.  

So - use running numbers with your versions if you release them to anybody else!

Camo
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Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »
You're welcome Nuttz.  

Camo
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