Was this my Kobayashi Maru?

[RedBeard]

If anyone was upset by the Allies taking out ammo bunkers at the Axis fields, send your slings, arrows, 7mm, 20mm, etc. my way.  I was Allied CiC this frame and I thought we were at a significant disadvantage with the plane sets and I needed to do something different if we were to survive.  I did read through the rules again first to make sure I was not doing something prohibited.

It was a high risk / high reward play.  I took one squad (25% of Allies) off the defense of the fleet and tasked it to take out the ords at the three active Axis bases.  The planes could only carry 2x100 lb bombs and each ord bunker took 300 lbs of damage.  I sent 11 planes to take out 10 ord bunkers.  If successful, we sustain whatever damage the fleet takes on the first wave, plus whatever the survivors bring in successive waves after they hotpad at any friendly field.  A diminished amount to be sure, but still a non-zero threat.  Survivors would have had a better chance at getting through with only 75% of Allied forces available.  If unsuccessful, I just weakened our defenses by 25% for no good (not much anyway) reason, making it that much easier for the fleet to be taken out.  Yes, I did ask the ammo bunker raid group to harass any returning fighters and bombers after they were done with the bunkers, but given the effort required to down all the bunkers, it was almost definite they wouldn't be fresh and unwounded either.

Anyway, I wanted to say thanks to the 325th for their ammo bunker raid and kudos to doing it well and also thanks to the rest of the Allied squads for defending as well as they did with 75% of the available defenses.  If anyone wants to complain, please direct it at me, not them.

As to why the CMs reset the ammo bunkers at the Axis fields, I'm not sure.  I can see my plan as being "unfair" in the sense that it was unexpected, but I didn't think it was outside what the rules allowed.  If didn't close any fields, it allowed hotpad at other friendly fields for first wave survivors, fighters would still be able to up, it just severely reduced bomb damage, particularly in the 2nd hour.  I would like to hear why that was done.

I hope everyone had fun regardless.

Red Beard
CO 364th C-Hawks

[Bannor]

It was outside the box thinking and I thought it was a great idea. The only true 2nd wave attack I saw were the 3 JU87's on the deck trying to come in from the Northeast. Drano and I took care of that. The rest of the attack looked to consist of fur balling 202's north of the fleets. I had fun. Some didn't. If the CM's or anyone else didn't appreciate your tactical plan, then they need to spell it out going forward. Good job Red! 

[Dantoo]

Can only speak for myself.  Didn't bother me any.  Nice to see something not scripted.

We didn't take Ju87s back to the fleet because we didn't have time to get there and back.  We only had seconds to spare with landing in C202s and we didn't get all the way to the fleet in second hour.

At least you gave us something to look at.

[DH367th]

You tried to dictate the battle by taking out ordnance  that your side was not tasked with. CIC's do not get to change the makeup as you please. Allied had 0 offensive orders. Hence you wasted a squad and accomplished nothing as it was not a legal raid I reset ammo. Please try to stick within the frame work you are given by admin.

[Rocco]

Can only speak for myself.  Didn't bother me any.  Nice to see something not scripted.

We didn't take Ju87s back to the fleet because we didn't have time to get there and back.  We only had seconds to spare with landing in C202s and we didn't get all the way to the fleet in second hour.

At least you gave us something to look at.

I think this is the real issue. Many allied pilots stayed the whole second hr burning holes in the sky waiting for an attack that looked like it was coming due to the number of axis in flight, but wasn't.

Maybe adding a second hr airspawn so the ju87s have a chance to get to target and back home in time. But still far enough away that allied aircraft can get to alt. Or scrap the second hour aircraft all together for this one.

[RedBeard]

You tried to dictate the battle by taking out ordnance  that your side was not tasked with. CIC's do not get to change the makeup as you please. Allied had 0 offensive orders. Hence you wasted a squad and accomplished nothing as it was not a legal raid I reset ammo. Please try to stick within the frame work you are given by admin.

The rules state I must apply a credible force to the task objectives. It doesn’t say I can’t put forces on anything that is not a task. If the CMs want those limits, the rules should be modified to say that. Like I said, I did check the rules before hand.

[RedBeard]

Can only speak for myself.  Didn't bother me any.  Nice to see something not scripted.

We didn't take Ju87s back to the fleet because we didn't have time to get there and back.  We only had seconds to spare with landing in C202s and we didn't get all the way to the fleet in second hour.

At least you gave us something to look at.

I was a bit surprised about this myself, but I thought it was due to the Axis losing track of the fleets. The objectives said they were going to be eastbound, but the path didn’t last the whole frame, so they reversed course and were headed west bound in the latter part of the frame.

[Drano]

It didn't bother me either. I agree with Dantoo tho, nice to see something that vaguely resembles strategy. With the numbers we have these days it's a pretty rare thing so I applaud the effort. Where we used to have hundreds of players a side and usually three different targets to attack and defend, now we're lucky to get a hundred and change altogether with a single target. This lends itself to near scripted events where there's almost no strategy and its fly from point A to point B. Attackers fly from point A, the defense just stacks up over point B. Each week it's just a different target. Each month is just another target in a different theater. Fairly repetitive. I miss the old days too but it is what it is. The numbers just aren't what they once were and don't think that's gonna reverse itself.

That said, I don't get how this was "illegal". If that's the case it needed to be specifically spelled out in the rules. No attacking non-designated targets. Hard to believe hitting an active enemy field would be considered against "the rules". People CAP the second hour fields waiting for them to open all the time. That's cool tho.

I had fun as I usually do. Had a good scrap with the initial 202 sweep over the fleet, transitioned to the incoming bombers when they were found, shot some of them and ran out of ammo. Rearmed and shot at a second wave of bombers and got back wth an oiled engine. Had a trio smoking before heading back so I should have hung out on the deck a while. Prob cost me a kill or so. Oh well. Next hop in a Hurri we found those Stukas low but I collided with one. Made it back to the carrier wth half a wing but couldn't maintain level flight when slow. Ended up crashing on the deck at 165 mph. Close! Last hop was a scrap with 202s on the deck. Another collision and end of the night. Had a few kills and my usual bucket of assists.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Spikes]

Hmm a lot to unpack here. While I'm not the designer for this one I'll give my 2 cents. I will start by saying the entire point of Hour 2 in FSO is to keep people participating longer and hope that everyone can continue to enjoy whatever setup is the flavor of the month. Obviously that strays from the original FSO intent, but here we are.

With that said, I don't have any issue with killing the ord bunkers so long as it isn't against the rules (which it isn't/wasn't). Hell, I've even done similar things from time to time in FSO and Scenario if it gives some advantage (though it's never been to the point of zero ords). Personally, I thought it was a lot to dedicate to such a task considering in Hour 2 objectives are worth half and the attackers are downgraded to single rearmed Ju 88s/Ju87s...but like you said, risk/reward and I applaud the strategy.

If it were me, I would've let it ride despite no ords available because in the end it is an oversight. But you have to understand, as a designer, it's very tough to think of every single possible thing that could be used and abused. And as a setup, you're often making decisions within seconds on the fly with lots of people in your ear complaining. I remember an event where I made the rule that B-17s max alt was 22K or something on ingress. I didn't specify egress. So the B-17s climbed to 30K on their way home. Whoops. We also had an oversight once where the Hour 2 field was the Hour 1 target and was flattened. Had to react quickly and enable planes at a nearby field so people could still enjoy the last hour. We've had events with a Bible's worth of rules as well in the past and to me they can be a pain too. We try our best not to make it scripted but also have to ensure all players have fun in a short amount of time...it's a tough balancing act.

Frame 1's planeset for this month was very unique as it was sort of solely the Italians dealing with the convoy. The C.202 is somewhat of a hotrod in Frame 1 but the F4F and Sea Hurri can absolutely crush bombers. IMO, a very atypical and asymmetrical matchup and something that we try to do to spice things up. Frames 2 and 3 should be much more standard with the 109F and Spit V.

Okay, so maybe it was more like 50 cents.

 

[Bannor]

You tried to dictate the battle by taking out ordnance  that your side was not tasked with. CIC's do not get to change the makeup as you please. Allied had 0 offensive orders. Hence you wasted a squad and accomplished nothing as it was not a legal raid I reset ammo. Please try to stick within the frame work you are given by admin.

When orders are submitted, are they not reviewed by the CM(s) before hand to be certain that they adhere to whatever special rules and overall rules that are put into place already? There was nothing vague about what he put into the plan for the allied side. If it were an issue, then it should have been addressed before hand. 

[perdue3]

If anyone was upset by the Allies taking out ammo bunkers at the Axis fields, send your slings, arrows, 7mm, 20mm, etc. my way.  I was Allied CiC this frame and I thought we were at a significant disadvantage with the plane sets and I needed to do something different if we were to survive.  I did read through the rules again first to make sure I was not doing something prohibited.

It was a high risk / high reward play.  I took one squad (25% of Allies) off the defense of the fleet and tasked it to take out the ords at the three active Axis bases.  The planes could only carry 2x100 lb bombs and each ord bunker took 300 lbs of damage.  I sent 11 planes to take out 10 ord bunkers.  If successful, we sustain whatever damage the fleet takes on the first wave, plus whatever the survivors bring in successive waves after they hotpad at any friendly field.  A diminished amount to be sure, but still a non-zero threat.  Survivors would have had a better chance at getting through with only 75% of Allied forces available.  If unsuccessful, I just weakened our defenses by 25% for no good (not much anyway) reason, making it that much easier for the fleet to be taken out.  Yes, I did ask the ammo bunker raid group to harass any returning fighters and bombers after they were done with the bunkers, but given the effort required to down all the bunkers, it was almost definite they wouldn't be fresh and unwounded either.

Anyway, I wanted to say thanks to the 325th for their ammo bunker raid and kudos to doing it well and also thanks to the rest of the Allied squads for defending as well as they did with 75% of the available defenses.  If anyone wants to complain, please direct it at me, not them.

As to why the CMs reset the ammo bunkers at the Axis fields, I'm not sure.  I can see my plan as being "unfair" in the sense that it was unexpected, but I didn't think it was outside what the rules allowed.  If didn't close any fields, it allowed hotpad at other friendly fields for first wave survivors, fighters would still be able to up, it just severely reduced bomb damage, particularly in the 2nd hour.  I would like to hear why that was done.

I hope everyone had fun regardless.

Red Beard
CO 364th C-Hawks

<S> RedBrd,

As the Admin of this event and designer, I can tell you why the CM popped the ammo. Ordnance was supposed to be disabled for all fighters per the writeup and objectives. So, you should not have had that available to you. Having said that, I love the idea and tactic. You took away our chances of a second attack and I have complained about this very thing in the past (as the offender).

I think the real problem I have with it is not that you attacked when not ordered to, but you hindered the event. We are trying to recreate here, you wouldn't have been able to disable Stukas from taking bombs during Operation Pedestal and so one half of the event is killed because of that action. I suppose what I am saying is you used the game to your advantage, instead of playing into the realism and sticking to your defensive duties as ordered. I realize this is a game and all that jazz, but you get what I am saying I hope.

In the end, sounds like it wasn't a tragic thing, so all good. We designers try to keep it interesting with different sets, new rules, formats, etc. I did not feel that you were at a huge disadvantage like you said, but maybe it played out differently.

We appreciate your continued dedication to FSO.

 

[RedBeard]

Ordnance was supposed to be disabled for all fighters per the writeup and objectives.

Sorry. That’s on me. I read that as being disabled for all Axis fighters, but as I look at it again I see it could be both sides.

[RichardDarkwood]

Wow

so if anyone else does something " Off Script " that is OK

[SIK1]

At least he had a script. 

 

[Bannor]

When orders are submitted, are they not reviewed by the CM(s) before hand to be certain that they adhere to whatever special rules and overall rules that are put into place already? There was nothing vague about what he put into the plan for the allied side. If it were an issue, then it should have been addressed before hand.