Author Topic: Perk Point planes. Question and Suggestions (Read 269 times)

Vortex · « **on:** January 04, 2002, 10:35:00 AM »

I've been trying to wrap my brain around how this entire perk point thing works. Specifically how certain planes require perk points whilst others do not. I realize the intent of the perk points is to keep certain unbalancing planes restricted...an excellent approach too I might add.

However, I'm a bit confused as to how specifc planes are assigned perk points, or not. One can leave the 262 and 234 aside here as I think those are quite obvious and all seems to be in order there. However, thing get a bit more obscure after that. A few examples that have me a tad confused...

Tempest: Granted, a late war ride with some nice performance characteristics. But when one has a La7 available why bother with a Tempest? I can see there being a few benefits to the Tempest for the e-fighter types, but overall the exceptinal performance and handling of the La7 makes these two planes quite close. Just curious why one has perk points and the other not as there really isn't much separating these two planes?

Ta 152: This one really confuses me. Obviously it to is one of the fabled uber-weapons of the LW, the quintessential high alt interceptor. For arena play though its a far sight worse than a lot of other planes out there imo, the Fw-D9 being one example. Other than when at the 30k alt range, I believe the Dora outperforms the 152 here in just about every other area or alt range. Defintely down below 10k, where the bulk of the fights occur in MA, the Ta really isn't that great a choice to fly. In a nutshell, its a bit of a pig when put in the context of arena play.

F4U-C: This one makes a bit more sense to me. With the big advantage that comes with cannons, having a small amount of perk points assigned to this plane would help keep it from being the only F4 flown I'd think. No idea on the F4U-4 though, haven't flown it at all yet so don't have any questions regarding it.

That all having been said, my questions are these. Have you folks tried running the Ta-152 and/or Tempest as non-perk pointed planes? Even if just for one tour? If so, how did it work out? The Tempest might get a bit overused as it is a pretty potent e-fighter. Although so is the La7 when you keep it within its envelope, hence why they are so popular I guess. The Ta, however, seems really out of place as a perk point plane. This thing is a bit of a dog when it comes to arena play imo and, accordingly, makes me wonder why its even on the perk point list in the first place?

Vortex

P.S. As an aside I'm not at all suggesting that planes like the La7 get perk points. The more important issue imo is plane variety when flying. Although I see a lot of La7's, I see just as many Spits. Seeing a predominance of one type is always bad as things just get stale then, and that doesn't seem to be too big a problem here. I guess the issue is simply this; perk points are pretty cut and dry when looking at the real uber-rides such as jets. It gets a lot more grey, however, with some of the other late war planes. I'm just curious what kinda of arena testing was done, if any, to see how often some of these other perk pointed planes would get used. After the initial rush, I'd think some would probably see a lot less action then one might think (thinking the Ta152 specificially here).

Just my two bits anywhoo.

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Vortex ]

Ripsnort · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2002, 10:36:00 AM »

You left out the F4U-4..70 perks for something that should be 10...

eskimo2 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2002, 02:21:00 PM »

Well written Vortex.
I've been thinking the same things about the same planes.

eskimo

J_A_B · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2002, 03:23:00 PM »

The tempest is perked because it has the F4U-1C's gun set on a plane that generally out-performs the LA7.

The Ta-152, if flown in its element, totally outclasses any propeller plane in AH. The fact that hardly enyone ever flies at more than 30K is beside the point--if you do and meet a 152 up there, you'd better be in a jet or another 152.

The F4U-4 is perked because it has to be, as it is better for MA usage than any unperked fighter in AH (indeed, it is arguably better for the MA then the tempest is). Unperked this plane would likely dominate the MA.

The LA7 is NOT perked because it has several glaring weaknesses. Although it accelerates quickly, it also bleeds E fairly fast and slower planes like the P-51 can often outdistance it for as much as a sector or more. In addition the LA7's 20mm cannons have poor ballistics which makes the LA7 generally ineffective at ranges greater than 500 yards (I have often run one out of ammo from 800-1000 using only a gentle skid). Finally the LA7's range is so short and its high-altitude performance is so bad it's useless for anything except defence and short-range strikes. It is my opinion that the LA7 is best used as a perk-plane killer, where its speed and acceleration is most important and its lack of range is not.

J_A_B

Vortex · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2002, 05:31:00 PM »

You lost me there JAB, on the Ta152 anyway. I'm a bit uncertain how one can view alts as irrelevant. A plane that's a dog on the deck but good past 30k seems to be just a tad out of its element in the arena. And since its arena performance is, or should be, what determines it being "perked" or not, I'd offer that its a very important distinction to make. Since the frequency of anything happening at 30k is pretty much nil, the planes' main strengths never come into play. Which is very much why I don't quite understand it being a perk plane. Sure, use the perk points and fly it at 30k+...but why? There's nothing up there. And at the 20k range there's a lot better choices available to fly that don't require perk points. Point being is that perk points, as I understand it, are there to prevent certain planes from dominating the arena. Without its perk points I just don't see the 152 getting much work at all (certainly no more than a P51D or Dora) because the bulk of play is below 20k, where this plane is just average.

I'm not sure I agree that the Tempest is that superior to the La7 either. Sure it has a few advantages. However I don't see it at all as outpacing the La7 to any great degree. Three very big advantages the La7 possesses are its better acceleration, better slow speed handling, and concentrated cannon configuration. These are pretty important assets that do serve to balance the scales somewhat. No argument that the Tempest is cleaner and faster, marginally on the deck and quite a bit moreso at higher alts. Regarding range, well, it doesn't have a whole lot more than the La7. Its drop tanks are quite small and it chews through a full load of fuel pretty fast. It is superior here though, but not by any huge amount from what I can see. I can't comment much on the ballistics as I rarely fire past 300-500 yds. Will take your word for it though.

Nevertheless the Tempest is a very nice plane in many respects, much moreso than the 152. It certainly has the potential of getting a lot more use if it weren't perk pointed. But that gets back to my original question of whether or not the arena had ever been run with these planes openly available.

Vortex

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Vortex ]

Urchin · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2002, 06:14:00 PM »

No, not to my knowledge. We had one "perk-plane" free day (when 1.09 was introduced). I believe 90% of the planes flying that day were Me-262s, the other 10% were targets.

I have given up on being eloquent about my reservations over the Ta-152's perk cost. It is apparently perked because it is A. German, and B. just cause. The plane offers no advantages in the MA environment, period.

I don't know enough about the F4U-4, but going by the performance charts I've seen for it in game(in Americas Hundred Thousand), and comparing them to AH's performance charts in game for other planes, I think it is way overpriced too.

Me-262 doesn't need a perk cost reduction, IMO. The Arado does, again IMO. Just the off chance that you may run into a 262 probably keeps a lot of potential Arado drivers on the ground (or in Lanc's).

Tempest could probably use a reduction also, due to the fact that an La-7 has an even money shot at killing one in a 1v1 fight, and in the off chance that you run into a 262 in it means you are dogmeat, eventually.

J_A_B · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2002, 06:30:00 PM »

"But that gets back to my original question of whether or not the arena had ever been run with these planes openly available."

No it hasn't, and in the case of the F4U-4 and TEMP there's no need to. Both of these aircraft are clearly perk material, superior to the main rides in the MA in almost every department. There's no need to let them run rampant in the arena only to discover what is already ovbious.

In the case of the 152 it probably wouldn't completely dominate the MA, but it WOULD dominate its niche. Of all the perked aircraft in AH the 152 has the strongest case for NOT being perked. It might not hurt to un-perk this plane for a tour and see what happens.

I think the LA7 is the absolute best fighter likely to be included as a non-perk. As good as it is, it's lack of range, guns, and performance over 10K hampers it enough that it isn't an arena-dominator.

J_A_B

Urchin · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2002, 10:11:00 PM »

Quote

In the case of the 152 it probably wouldn't completely dominate the MA, but it WOULD dominate its niche. Of all the perked aircraft in AH the 152 has the strongest case for NOT being perked. It might not hurt to un-perk this plane for a tour and see what happens.

Ta152 usage would rise some for the first few days, then it would drop down again. It would probably steady out at about 1k kills per tour. Oh, and by the way-

Quote

1. In the case of the 152 it probably wouldn't completely dominate the MA,

2.but it WOULD dominate its niche.

1. There is no way in hell the Ta152 could even come close to dominating the MA. At all.

2. I also disagree with this. The B-17 is the "master" of high altitude fighting. A Ta-152 has roughly a 25% chance of killing a B-17 at 35k. That 25% chance is because you might catch it by surprise and kill it in one pass, if not you will never kill it.

popeye · « **Reply #8 on:** January 07, 2002, 11:33:00 AM »

Hard to understand why the F4U-4 is perked at all. Performance just isn't that spectacular compared to other unperked planes. (BTW, the ammo loadouts for the F4U-1D and -4, on the help page, are incorrect. They both have .50 cal MG, not 20mm.)

Tac · « **Reply #9 on:** January 07, 2002, 12:03:00 PM »

F4u4 is in between the la7 and the tempest in accel/speed...

and I think it should be perked (albeit, at around 15 perks or so), because if it wasnt then the other F4u's wouldnt be used at all.

I feel VERY bad when I smack an f4u4 or a ta152, they arent that great but cost as if they were. Now the tempest and the 262's cost I agree with. Arado should be around 20 perks (now that 262's can easily catch it).152 should be like 12 perks (I know the d9 outperforms it down low, but the 152 IS one of the best 190's in the game and has much better guns than the d9. I have MUCH more trouble shooting a 152 below 20k than I do a d9. I think the 152 turns a bit better or retains a bit more E... dunno, just an observation, urchin, what say you?)

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Tac ]

Wilbus · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2002, 05:22:00 AM »

I agree that the TA152 is overpriced, 10-15 pekrs top, maybe even unperked (would be nice to try and unperk it for a tour or maybe 2 weeks). However, when people say good planes, they usually only mean speed and speed is the only reason a plane should be perked, in the case of the 262 this is right. Tempest and F4u are both pretty good turners with great acceleration and climb, F4u even a very good turner with flaps.

Fow those who never fly the TA152, it's got its bad things and good things. For one, with about 50% fuel load in it (100% internal fuel gives TA152 a flight time of 10 minutes more then P51D with 100% internal) and with the right pilot this thing can TURN!
With 50% it can most likely turn with an LA7 at the deck, it can't run nor climb away though so if you get outturned yer toast.
Acceleration in dives is exelent, if you have a few K alt you will outdive P51's and Doras, I have outdove AR234's with me having only 1k more alt at about 15k.

High alt performance of the TA152 in AH, I must say, is a bit disapointing, at 30k a spit 9 is equal with it, Bomber swill easely outmanuver it up there and P38 has got as good climb. I THINK that High alt performance for most planes in AH might be a bit weird, specially angles for level flight etc, atleast if you compare with what pilots, specially spit I and V pilots said about the very high nose attitude at 30k level flight.

TA152 wings, are both long and filled with fuel, better burn the wing tanks some before going on a B&Z run otherwise the wings will rip in 4G or less.

Allso, the TA152 in different versions were used in combat, a total of 150 were produced and brougth into LW service where they mostly served as cover for 262 (bad usage of such a sperior High alt plane).

Not sure what I have written anymore, just said everything I had on mind, try and unperk TA152 is my sugestion, would be nice to see how many fly it.
Maybe add a TA152 C?

So, did anybody actually read all that?

Tac, to your question, TA152 turns better, specially if it doens't have 100% internal fuel wich is ALOT fuel. It retains E quite much better too and there is no need to trim ailerons in it. No 190's should need any kind of trimming tho.

Urchin · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2002, 11:13:00 AM »

Ah, Tac, Glasses can probably give you a better run down on how the Dora stacks up against the 152 under 20k.

As far as I've seen it would be like this.

Dora has the advantage in level speed.
Dora has the advantage in level acceleration.
Dora climbs (sustained) better.
Dora has a marginal advantage in roll rate.

Ta152 has a very marginal advantage in turn rate. So marginal that it in fact doesn't matter at all.

Ta152 picks up speed a lot faster in a dive.
Ta152 holds that speed longer.
Ta152 zooms better coming off a high speed dive.

I'd say the Ta152 probably zooms about as well as a G10 coming out of a 450 mph dive.

Wilbus · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2002, 11:44:00 AM »

Uhmm, IMO Dora zooms better then G10, and TA152 outzooms all german fighter quite easily.
Ta152 rolls very well when it doens't have very much fuel in the wing tanks. Turns quite much better then dora.

Urchin · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2002, 01:36:00 PM »

It is all rather subjective, I suppose. I can "outturn" Niks and Spits in a G10 if I cut inside of their turn. The 152 may have some small advantage over the Dora in turning rate/ radius, but is it big enough to matter? No. Any La-7, P-51, 109, or Yak that gets into a fight with a Ta-152 can still outturn it quite handily, plus they can run away if they manage to botch it.

Don · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2002, 01:06:21 PM »

Reading the responses to the original post I find myself getting confused. I compare what has been written to what I know of actual historical information about the performance of the planes discussed.
The Ta152 was an Uber plane developed to counter the performance of the Allies hi-alt planes which were killing the Nazi interceptors over germany. The german people and their homes were being destroyed at will, and the Nazi's had to come up with something to counter them. From what I have read, it was an awesome plane and, had they been manufactured in greater numbers they would have given the P-51; the acknowledged master of the skies over Europe, a run for it's money. It wasn't though, in development they were plagued by a number of issues and shortages. It was by its design a high alt interceptor/fighter.
The La7 was an advancement over the La5 but, interestingly it wasn't equipped with the Russian top of the line engine until months after it was first introduced (can't think of the name of the engine right now). It flew for several months with the lesser engine used in the La5. As with most fighter advancements during WW2, improvements on models were based in reaction to what their adversaries were fielding.
I agree, I do not understand the thinking behind assignment of perk points to a/c in AH. I guess if it were me, I would assign a certain amount of perk points to a plane dependent upon difficulty of killing it. One thing of interest to me, the P-51 in AH and the MA isn't the predominant fighter. Hell, the P-51 should be able to run away from an LA7 and a Dora (given certain conditions) but, it diesn't and can't. It should also be able to perform well at higher alts but it can't and doesn't.
I do think however, that planes are perked given certain criteria; rate of climb, speed and armament. If this is accurate then, the Temp, the Me-262, the Arado and the Chog should be perked.
I don't think the Ta152 should be perked at the level it is set at now. If the only place it can consistently compete is at higher alts, then it only has one advantage. Hell, perhaps it shouldn't be perked at all.
I have flown the F4U-4 and while it has decent climb, that is the only real thing in its favor. Its speed and armament is on a par with many other non perked planes, and is able to climb with other non perked planes (eg. 109s and spits).