Overall lethality in AH and followup on "fats" post...

[Fishu]

I Don't see any bad with lethality, I even wish they would DOWNGRADE lethality...

Would make up for better fights and make people think bit more.

Never had any problems killing anything, even with 7.92mm...
In Bf109G-2 I have several times been flying with just a pair of 7.92mm left and hunting 1-3 more kills with those.
(best so far, 5 kills with a pair 7.92mm )

Hmm.. conclusion must be that DoctorYo is shooting too far or needs more training with his marksmanship.

[Maniac]

I´m for Downgrading lethality on all planes as well. . .

I dont like getting killed from d1.2 (on his FE)

If nothing is done to downgrade the lethality atleast remove the range counter on the icons to make up for it.

Regards.

// -nr-1-

[Daniko]

i did see an interview with a 51 pilot who unloaded his entire clip of 50mm into the back of a 190 and watched it fly away,  engine smoking. He knew he was hitting the thing, cause sparks and pieces where flying off. I'm all for reducing the range factor.  Killing planes at 800-1000 yards should be next to impossible imho.

[Daniko]

" I personally believe it should impossible for a single fighter to down a b17. Of all
                          the pictures ive seen of them with 20 or more little swaztikas painted on them for air kills...id think theyd have a
                          better survivability rate?"

Fallen,  Bomber Command lost 50,000 lives in WWII.  Over 1/2 of the b17's that flew either didn't make it back, or were damaged beyond repair.  The b17 was a tough plane, but those images of b17's surviving attacks are just part of the bigger picture.  There survivability was enhanced by the fact that they flew in tight formation, and later that they had large groups of experienced escorts flying against what remained of the luftwaffe (mostly children.)  In AH, i have yet to go up against a flight of 20-30 b17's in formation with my 190.  But i can tell u i don't look forward the prospect.  Attacking even a single 1 takes some expert thinking when there is a good gunner in it.

[Skorpyon]

Funny.. the pilots who get in on my six must be using a different lethality setting... few pings here or there and whole wings and such fly off sometimes.  I really think it is impossible to tell exactly WHERE your rounds are hitting at times, and regardless of the caliber of the weapon fired, location of impact is the key.  You can lace a few hundred .50 rounds in to a 17 (done it) from 1.3K as YO mentioned, but the dispersion of those rounds due to lack of convergence at that distance simply means you have shredded the outer surface of the plane, without damaging any vital components.  As far as the fuel catching fire, "especially with incendiary rounds", .. if you ever get a chance, watch the video "Deadly Weapons", I believe released by Paladin Press.  It debunks many firearms myths, one of which is the "bullet in the gas tank goes boom" myth.  An automotive gas tank was filled 1/4 full, containing enough fluid to ignite, but the fumes that occupied the remaining space in the tank would be much more volatile than the fluid.  The shooters unloaded a 30 rd. magazine of .308 rounds, including ball, tracer, and incendiary, in to the tank.  All it did was steam a bit and leak all over the place.  The only way they could get it to ignite was to hang a molotav cocktail above it, shoot the m/c, and the resulting fireball would ignite the fuel tank.  Do I think the modeling in AH is perfect?.. No, but I really think the lethality issue is a dead one.. pun intended.  It comes down to location of hits.  Yes, given the same location, a cannon rd. will, and does, cause more damage than an m.g. round, but if the hit location isn't right, all you have is a fairly well-ventilated plane that can still fly.  Ugly to look at perhaps, but able to maintain flight.  I just wonder about the lethality rating of the spitwads it takes to knock off the wings of a P-51!    

[flakbait]

If you want an example of the lethality of a 109 here it is. My grand dad flew the 109-G6 for over 2 years and he's told me about quite a few of his kills. I wish to protect his privacy, and the privacy of the other pilots that flew with him, so I will not give any names. Here's two examples:


"I can remember when I first encountered the P-51D over France in late 1944. I was flying in a group of four 109s, all Gustav models, when we saw them around 2,000 meters below us at our 2 o'clock.

I didn't know what kind of plane it was, but most in the group thought it was American. We closed to 1,000 meters to get a better look. They were silver in color, with a long thin nose similar to my 109. There were black and white stripes on the wings, from the fuselage out to the mid-wing position as well.

I thought the idea of flying a silver plane was rediculous! It was a flying mirror!! We kept closing until the Gruppenkommanduer called a dive on their 6. What fun! They had no idea we were even there!

After a short dive I put the bulls-eye on the tail of the laging P-51 and fired my machine guns. The range was only about 340 meters. There were hits all over his tail, and some on the wings too. I quit firing about 3 seconds later so I could see his plane and if it was damaged or not.

He had a badly fluttering elevator and rudder, and his flaps on the right were torn to shreds. I fired my cannon not two seconds later at his right wing. Not a long burst like in the movies, just a quick shot using a few shells. The entire right wing exploded into flames! Then it came off still burning!

The pilot bailed out, but was hit when the left wing of his plane rotated around. He did pop his 'chute though, which made me feel a bit better. I flew by his 'chute and saluted him, which he oddly returned!

We counted how much ammo I had used after I got back; just 23 cannon shells and 117 machine gun bullets. That was a great day, but I still say that a silver plane is a flying mirror!!"


Here's the almost exact opposite of the above kill:


"I knew we'd find some American planes near a rail depot on that day; they'd hit every other rail depot in the area but this one so we stayed over it. We were orbiting at 3,500 meters when my Kacmareck spotted some silver planes over a kilometer away.

When we flew in to identify them we found a Vic of P-47s! They were busy bombing and shooting rockets at the trains and the cars so we stayed high. Once they pulled off and started gaining altitude we went in after them [again in 109-G6 models - Flakbait].

I had no idea how tough this plane was until I got within 300 meters of him and fired my machine guns. There were hits all over hit tail, and his left wing, but he just kept climbing!

After some seconds I fired my cannon and hit his right wing; that woke him up! He broke hard right and tried to climb away from me, but by that time I had already started a climb. If I had not I would have rammed him!

I brought my plane around in a tight spiraling climb and dove back down on him from his 8 o'clock. I fired until my cannon was empty, getting hits all over his plane. Some were on the wings, a few hit the engine, but his tail took brutal punishment. Then next thing I heard was a deafening bang; I was being hit!

I had to bail because the engine temperature gauge was well past red line, and I did not want to be in the plane when it exploded. The P-47 I had shot to pieces just flew away, I presume he landed safely back at his field."

I was told later by grand dad:

"They found the wreck of my plane a few days later, but they didn't find much ammunition. 192 machine gun bullets were found still in the plane. They didn't find any cannon shells. I had expended 408 machine gun bullets and 130 cannon shells without killing him! From then on I tried to stay away from P-47s."


Flakbait
Admin, Delta 6's Flight School

[dolomite]

Obviously your dad experience packet loss or net lag. His FE didn't see what the P47 saw blah blah blahddie blah blah...  

Good Stories!

[Maniac]

lol dolomite hehe  

Indeed good stories flak. . .

// -nr-1-

[Westy]

 Thanks for sharing that Flakbait.
 You're fortunate to be able to have these talks with your grandad as the sun is setting for that generation and they become fewer each day  

 -Westy

[DoctorYO]

To CODFishu:

Talking trash when you have a whole 1.23% better rating of gunnery is pretty close minded and pathetic..

Also note for someone who just flys the 109g2 and gets five kills with mg only I say good job but how many of those kill were manuever and how many of those kills where not vulches etc...  Best kills I have recieved in th 109f4 is 4. Now note I had to rtb becuase of fuel...I still had  about 30 cannon shells; but see im happy to get 2 kills per sortie maybe even 1 per sortie and I'm still smiling.  I'm not in competition with anyone here until I'm engaging them in combat so score is not really a issue for me.... But lets be honest you really didn't kill 5 people with mg only??  did you??  In two sorties you recieved 6 kills; 5  in one sortie with mg only.. Im going to call you on that one... BAAAH you are full of sh**...crap out a film with all that other dung your dumping on us.

Now lets talk your gunnery Cod fish I have also noticed that the majortity (90% or more) of your sorties are flown in the FW-190. Now one thing I notice when I fly that plane is that my gunnery goes way up.  why?? Its easy to get the bead on someone in a 190. That plane is so stable with speed its a joke when compared with the constant trimming, and fighting with your aircraft that you have with a 109...190 also bleeds e well for when you bounce someones 6 you can cut there turn radius for 1 sec,shoot them and then  extend away...  Simply put a 190 is easier to kill people than a 109 in general arena mahem.  In a 1 vs 1 109 is king..

So in regards to me improving my gunnery your right there is always room for improvement but as far as you gloating over your gunnery espicially in a B&Z plane thats just a show of dweebness on your part..  B&Z planes will always have the best gunnery in the general arena.

Also note has anyone ever seen CODFishu engage the enemy at odds to save one of his teamates tail. Hell no.. I have never seen him save anyone...That might put him at risk of getting shot down..OH the dread of that..  I did see him run a few times and there is nothing wrong with that... but I consider your flying style boring...  In scenario by all means survive at all costs, a dead pilot is worthless; but in general arena I dont find it necessary to survive everytime.

So in short CODFishu:


Go suck some fish heads...

CODFISHU
8th dan Grandmaster of roadkillsu and Dung Warlord...
"Killer of 5 aircraft with 7.62mg only..."

Mannock is really CodFishu....

regards all,


DoctorYO

Thanks again for insights everyone else...

[This message has been edited by DoctorYO (edited 01-28-2000).]

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by DoctorYO:
To CODFishu:

Talking trash when you have a whole 1.23% better rating of gunnery is pretty close minded and pathetic..

Also note for someone who just flys the 109g2 and gets five kills with mg only I say good job but how many of those kill were manuever and how many of those kills where not vulches etc...  Best kills I have recieved in th 109f4 is 4. Now note I had to rtb becuase of fuel...I still had  about 30 cannon shells; but see im happy to get 2 kills per sortie maybe even 1 per sortie and I'm still smiling.  I'm not in competition with anyone here until I'm engaging them in combat so score is not really a issue for me.... But lets be honest you really didn't kill 5 people with mg only??  did you??  In two sorties you recieved 6 kills; 5  in one sortie with mg only.. Im going to call you on that one... BAAAH you are full of sh**...crap out a film with all that other dung your dumping on us.

Now lets talk your gunnery Cod fish I have also noticed that the majortity (90% or more) of your sorties are flown in the FW-190. Now one thing I notice when I fly that plane is that my gunnery goes way up.  why?? Its easy to get the bead on someone in a 190. That plane is so stable with speed its a joke when compared with the constant trimming, and fighting with your aircraft that you have with a 109...190 also bleeds e well for when you bounce someones 6 you can cut there turn radius for 1 sec,shoot them and then  extend away...  Simply put a 190 is easier to kill people than a 109 in general arena mahem.  In a 1 vs 1 109 is king..

So in regards to me improving my gunnery your right there is always room for improvement but as far as you gloating over your gunnery espicially in a B&Z plane thats just a show of dweebness on your part..  B&Z planes will always have the best gunnery in the general arena.

Also note has anyone ever seen CODFishu engage the enemy at odds to save one of his teamates tail. Hell no.. I have never seen him save anyone...That might put him at risk of getting shot down..OH the dread of that..  I did see him run a few times and there is nothing wrong with that... but I consider your flying style boring...  In scenario by all means survive at all costs, a dead pilot is worthless; but in general arena I dont find it necessary to survive everytime.
B]

LOL, did I say I have done it under this handle?  

Sorties: 12
Landed: 10
Ditches: 1
Deaths: 1

Kills: 37 F / 10 B
Assist: 12 F / 1 B


Ammo used: 8755
Hits: 1548
%: 17.68

Kills per time: 0.0022


Mostly done with 109G2, couple sorties with 109F4.

When I did 5 kills with 7.92mm (tsk, i did not say 7.62mm), I had done 4 kills with 3x20mm (lol, i dont why, but i suck with 3 cannons, but get better with 1)
I Shot 1 from in-flight, vulched 3 soon after take off with 20mm, then I ran out of ammo, begun emptying 1000 rounds of 7.92mm, strafed fighters on the runway, just assists mostly, one kill out of 205.
Then I fixated at planes that took off, shot down couple N1K2s with 7.92mm and two P-51s.
After last N1K2, I had P-51 go by my 6 and N1K2 tight up my ass, which got wiped out by friendly.
So, how careful flying is this?
I Do get more kills in shorter time scale in a 109 than in 190.
Simply because 109 has alot lower threshold to engage.

I Don't either try to clean up friendlies tulips who are enough stupid to go on the deck after one low enemy, while having couple higher enemies. (its their own stupidness, i am not there to lenghten his life and shorten mine till high enemies arrives)

This is a true story of true teamwork:
I Flew B-26, 3 guys out of around my 6 area said that they will cover me when I asked to.. (I were 13k) soon after there came 205 about 5k, they all 7 left after him!
There were right same time P-51 coming from ahead, high and I had to deal him myself.
Nobody came or stayed to help. (and you flame me?)

Btw. I do defend my team mates whenever its possible without sure death.
Simple reason; More friendlies around me = more targets for enemies = less chance for me to get shot down and more kills for me.
Actually I like to clean up friendlies, just because targets are often too dumb to watch their 6 while they have my team mate front of them. (can we say; easy kill?)

Ps. I Did one flight get 3 guys smash into ground near by me, no maneuver kills or kills for anyone out of them, even though I was the reason they died. (but I have got maneuver kills out of guys whos got shot down by friendly, who has gone down also, before the enemy died, no sense in this)

** End of whine reply for whine **

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 01-28-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

Boy, and I thought Americans were arrogant, guess I'll add one Fin to that list.

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

[DoctorYO]

Guess I pushed the right buttons....


8D


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DoctorYO