Interesting opinion on 151/15 in the 109K

[Pongo]

From the IL2 board
"
The Bf-109-K was a modified version of the Bf-109G-10 that now featured a number of improvements. The pre-serial Bf-109-K-0 aircraft appeared in September 1944 and differed from the G series on the outside through its enlarged engine hood under which the place of standard 13mm MG131 machine guns was taken up by new 15mm MG151/15 guns. In addition to the guns, the aircraft was equipped with an engine-mounted 30mm MK 108 cannon firing through the propeller hub. The aircraft came with a new Daimler-Benz DB 605 DB engine with a GM-1 nitrogen oxide boost that could increase engine power for a short while. During trials of the pre-serial aircraft, it became apparent that the engine operation was not reliable and the aircraft's construction was too heavy as a result of installing new armament. Taking the trial results into consideration, the new improved Bf-109K-4 modification was developed. Shipments to Luftwaffe units started as early as October 1944. The Bf-109-K-4 series aircraft came with a more reliable DB 605 D engine, equipped with an MW-50 water-methanol boost that could increase engine power for a short while. The form of the engine hood was changed because a new engine featuring a large two-stage mechanical compressor had been installed. The tail wheel of the aircraft was fully retractable into the fuselage. Armament was cut down to two 13mm MG 131 machine guns and 30mm MK 108 cannon firing through the propeller hub.

Advantages: Excellent performance characteristics. Strong armament. Ability to outfly almost any pursuer. Good field of vision from the cockpit. Simple and easily understood controls.

Disadvantages: Short range. Due to the end-of-war production problems - bad quality and short life-span of airframe.

"

So Olav thinks the 151/15 was used but only on the preseries aircraft...

[Hooligan]

And I think he's wrong about the Mg151/15.  An Mg151/15 is the same size and weight as the 20mm version.  These are much larger than Mg131s and I don't see how they could fit them into that space.  Also, I don't think they would they put a 15mm gun in when they could put a 20mm gun in the same place.

Hooligan

[Tony Williams]

Agreed. The MG 151 would never fit within the engine cowling of the Bf 109.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

[Citabria]

tony knows guns

I believe him

[niklas]

The 2-stage 605 engine wasn´t a 605D, this was a 605L. Afaik in the last days of the war 2 109K with 605L were delivered to the frontline

[HoHun]

Hi everyone,

The Me 109K with a 15 mm MG151 cowl armament is a myth.

The background is a planned armament increase for the Me 109K series. Initially, it was hoped that the Me 109K could be eqipped with wooden wings to save aluminium, and prototype wings were manufactured with internal MK108 cannon mountings. Since the wooden wing proved unsatisfactorily, the Me 109K-4 went into production with normal aluminium wings without the MK108, though.

As a result, the Me 109K-4 was initially scheduled for Gustav-standard "gondola" armament consisting of 2 x MG151/20. In February 1945 , this version was referred to as "Bf 109K-4/R6" by the Luftwaffe's order of battle plans for the summer of 1945. (Ironically, the correct official Rüstsatz designation for gondola weapons seems to have been R4.)

However, in March 1945 the Luftwaffe plans were modified, replacing the Me 109K-4/R6 by the Me 109K-6 (Sturm) as bomber destroyer. The K-6 was a Me 109K-4 with an internally mounted MK108 in each wing. (Some drawings mention the MG151 as optional weapon for the wing position, which might be the source of the "MG151/15" myth.)

A Messerschmitt drawing dated 26.06.1944 clearly indicates 1 engine-mounted MK108, 2 fuselage-mounted MG131 and 2 wing-mounted MK108 as Me 109K-6 armament, though. A similar drawing for the Me 109K-4 dated 15.06.1944 indicates 1 engine-mounted MK108 and the usual 2 fuselage-mounted MG131.

(Source: Messerschmitt Bf 109G/K by Manfed Griehl)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[poopster]

HoHun, good to see you over here

HoHun knows his guns, and his LW.

[wulfie14]

Just some backup from another source - MG 151/15 in the cowl of the Bf 109K are a myth. Myth comes from multiple wiring packages that most LW fighters had at various gun positions.

Some guy noticed in '45 or '46 that the 'wiring leads' for the MG 151 series of guns were present for the cowl guns on a captured Bf 109K, and 'wiring leads present' somehow became 'MG 151 at this position an option'.

Then 10 or 15 books on WW2 LW fighters all were basically copies of one of the first in depth books on the topic, and you had 15 books all with the same error, etc.

Mike/wulfie

[Tony Williams]

That kind of copying of misunderstood info happens a lot. You will still find many text books claiming that the Bf 109 saw service with the 30mm MK 103...

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Vector]

S!
I'm just reading book "Handbook of Great Aircraft of WWII" by Dr Alfred Price and Mike Spick. From Bf109 section can be found this:



From the text elsewhere:
" The initial production sub-type, the "Kurfurst 2", had a pair of 15 mm cannon in place of the 13 mm weapons mounted above the engine"

And this book is originally published in 1997 . Can someone please call and inform the authors of their false knowledge. This way we could finally get things right

[GRUNHERZ]

LOL the bottom picture is a standard G6 or G14, not even one with the with the streamlined cowl let alone a K4.....  Who does these captions?

[Pongo]

Alfred Price marks me as a boob. I have several spit related books by him...
Amazingly hard to find good info in his books.