Originally posted by Toad
I'm not calling you anything. I don't make ad hominem attacks. Whatever you are on this board in anyone's mind, it's you that have created the image/persona with your writings. Just as we all have.
I asked a serious question, given what I've read of your replies. I asked you if you thought the US NSO would leave when the time came in a normal "end of contract" civilised manner.
Obviously, you agree that they will. Which has been a major point of mine throughout this thread.
You are calling me idiot by suggesting that I can believe something so absurd.
Let's see. Italians themselves threw out Mussolini and Facism but were unable to remove the Germans that soon controlled their country. After the Allies drove the Germans out and the war was over,...
You are discarding the battles and the deaths, the cities that rebelles before the allies entered (like the Naples civilians, that fought 4 days to throw out the Germans), or almost the entire North, that have the Germans surrender the weapons to the partisans to have free path to the southern Austria.
But that does'nt count, they were not US deaths.
...the Catholic Church and the US CIA subverted the free elections? Is that what you're telling me? That the Church should never have spoken out or is it that the Church was merely a tool of the United States as well? Then the CIA "bought" the election for Democrazia Cristiana? Is this what you're saying?
The Catolic church is not part of the Italian state, the Vatican it's a sovereign state encircled in Italian territory (for you information, during the unification process, Rome was attacked by the Bersaglieri, and made a fierce resistence, the actual Vatican it's what is left of a state that extended in all central Italy), and her interference on Italian elections (mantained until the late '80), was in violation of the "concordato".
And no, the Church was not operating under US control (you know US is a Protestant state?) but they shared for a moment the same objective (avoid the commies win the elections).
I said that CIA donate funds (like a lot of big families, Agnelli, Augusta, that become very rich under the fascist dictatorate), and this one too is an interference on a sovereign state.
The Italian electorate that put Mussolini in power and then removed him were scared into the hands of the Democrazia Cristiana by the Catholic Church and purchased by the CIA as well for Democrazia Cristiana?
Is this what you are telling me? I'm not putting words into your mouth.. .I'm trying to understand that you really believe this.
Mister, I believe in nothing, my ideas are always open to change, if new informations arise, I remember to have already told you this in one of the old discussions.
There have been trials here, after DC was disbanded for corruption, and something has been put out of the secret by the CIA, the local chief of CIA in those times testify about that.
Will be difficult for you to find info on your US based sites, or even in other sites (WWW does'nt contain everything), but you can learn Italian and read some thousand of pages coming out from this trials.
An interesting piece of info, but just that, info.
More on this later.
Further, are you implying that we would have withheld the Marshall plan from Italy if Democrazia Cristiana had not won? Are you saying that?
Because if you are, are you aware that Marshall also offered aid to the Soviet Union and its allies in eastern Europe, but Stalin denounced the program as a trick and refused to participate?
In June 1947, delegates from France, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union met in Paris to discuss Marshall's proposal. After several days, Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav M. Molotov walked out, stating that the Soviet government "rejects this plan as totally unsatisfactory."
So you're saying we wouldn't have offered it to Italy if Democrazia Cristiana had not won?
Check by yourself, maybe you have all the possible info.
As to Berlusconi controlling your country and govenment by ownership of the media........
Let's see. You HAD a system for free elections after the war. What happened to it? IF you lost it it through losing control of the media to Berlusconi, who's fault would that be?
You asked about free elections NOW in Italy, I answered.
If you mistakenly supposed that I was accusing the US for it, you are wrong, this point to the real problem, even when a comment have nothing to do with US, you read it as an US bashing (and in this case is really an Italy bashing made by me), remember: i am not a "right or wrong it's my country" type of man.
Not that I agree with you basic premise. Mussolini totally controlled the country with an iron fist, media and all and ended up shot and hanged.
Berlusconi can still be done in with a simple ballot. IF the electorate so chooses.
It's not so simple, an electorate can choose
based on the information it have, if the infos are biased and controlled by one side, the choise will be "guided" in some way.
What we can see here in Italy is a macroexample of what a modern "info-dictature" can be, an interesting subject to study, less nice to live in it... but such is life.
This lead on the successive post you made, not directed to me (I hope), when you suggest (and you are not wrong) that there's a lot of people that have little knowledge of the History (I hope you dont include me in them
).
There's another problem... the problem is that the History is not absolute, it's relative, it's made of points of views, and can be examinated with the light of common sense and some little sociology.
Believing as you seem to do, that a country spend money and lives with no reward, just to help others, it's an oversimplification (i have the impression to have used a word that dont exist).
I bet your relatives that fought the war were people that truly believed the values you expressed, almost the same that I have, and I respect them and Salute them, and all the lifes spent to this values, and I Salute all the people that died for an ideal, even if I disagree with the ideals they died for.
But I question the governments, the powers (all of them, not only U.S.), behind them, I dont trust them, even if their acts have some good effect (as US had in Europe), I consider it a secondary effect, the primary objective it's another one, and it's not feed on the masses.
As I have already stated, if we leave this US-centric attitude and start to consider other nations, like Italy, you will find me bashing with the same force the govrnment and their professed intentions.
Fact is that almost every argument here in this board goes quick down to the dead road of the "We are better than others" "you owe us everything"...
and finally, the masterpiece: "we saved you arse".
It's tiring, and sad, because at that point everyone lose control on emotions (yeah sometime me too), and the discussion lose his positive effect: the sharing of points of view, and become a battle of absolute principles.
