Collisions - to be or not to be?

[burbank]

another thread (Ishmael's about realism) mentioned HO collisions and their effect on game-play.

But are collisions realistic.
I have never read a report of an accidental collision with an enemy aircraft.
Sure there a re a few accounts of 'heroic' deliberate collisions  - usually when the pilot or aircraft has been in a hopeless or dying position.  And some accounts of Japanese aircraft using a ramming technique in Homeland defence late in the war.

There are however, many, many reports of "friendly' collisions.
Yet in WarBirds they are modelled in reverse - you can collide with the enemy but not friends.  Of course formation flying would not be possible in buffs if friendly collisions were enabled.
But wouldn't it be better to exclude enemy collisions on the basis that any rational pilot who has at least some aircraft control would avoid colliding? You can get awfully close, awfully quick, and still avoid hitting something - as my frequent near misses of pelicans and eagles has showed me.  Ok, birds dont have double closing speed, but in fast-closing aircraft there are two rational pilots though.

Maybe only allow collision to happen if aircraft contol had been lost by spinning/stalling or loss of control surfaces.
some food for thought/discussion


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burbank
WWII history and Multi-player Simulator books
  http://www.senet.com.au/~mhyde/burbanks_books.htm  

[Pyro]

>But are collisions realistic.
>I have never read a report of an accidental collision with an enemy aircraft.

There's a number of stories about collisions with enemy planes, but most are probably untold.  Dead men don't tell tales.

>But wouldn't it be better to exclude enemy collisions on the basis that any rational pilot who has at least some aircraft control would >avoid colliding?

<scratches head>  I'm perplexed.




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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[SC-GreyBeard]

What???? Shouldn't collisions be a major factor.. both friendly and Foe??
Collisions ARE a major concern of anybody in a furball.. or should be.. to NOT have friendly collisions is tatamount to having a useless sim..



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GreyBeard
Flt Ldr
Skeleton Crew

[burbank]

pyro
I dont think I explained very well!
If an aircraft is under control, only very small moves are required to miss another aeroplane. And the pilots view and cueing on very subtle and small moves of the other aircraft would allow a miss in most situations.  And in RL a rational pilot would be expected to use all skill available to him to avoid the collision.
The processing of view information and subtle vector changes is not as good in sims because much of the very fine detail is not available - shadows, reflections etc. So in RL it is much easier to avoid a collision.
And of course netlag (and lots of other electronic effects I dont understand) all become a factor.
And the aircraft 'bubble' in WarBirds does not allow you to miss the other aircraft by 1 inch - I suppose yours will be refined, but will it allow the same fine line that is available in real life?
What I am suggesting is that if this "fine line' of RL near-miss is not available, would we be better off without collisions at all?

[Downtown]

Lets not forget Killshooter.

We will have a kill shooter function.

Can't shoot friends.

Probably can't collide with Friends.

I read a story of a Flying Tiger in a P-40B that cleaved a Ki-43 in half with his wing.

Now the P-40B(C) flew home missing 3 Feet of his wing.

Now will collisions be limited to the Area/Surface of the Aircraft Frame, or

(Not Be Strong, and DON't Look Away)

Will there be the much HATED COLLISION BUBBLE.

If the Damage Model is based on the area between the skin pollies of the aircraft, then collison should be survivable, if your plane doesn't suffer Catastrophic damage.

I wish I could use bold print, cause that previous sentence is the kicker.

I believe I remember a lot of Wingtip to Wingtip hits in the BOB also, now from what I remember this knocked the Living $#!+ out of any planes that did this, and they didn't do any ACM after such contact, the just nursed their cripples home if they didn't spin in.

If we have a Collision Bubble, and all collisons are Fatal, well we will have a collision code very much like we have in the other sim.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG

[Gimp]

O.K. as a disclaimer, I can't spell worth a rats butt. But, latency and omnipotent attitude in an arena type setting makes me think collisions with friendlies will be turned off (for target fixated pilots ) and the dreaded hit bubble will be around unless AH godz have figured out how to get around the latency thingie (which would be an idea concieved in AH heaven). If The GodZ did figure this out I would give them my first born or lots of local brew but I don't feel optimistic that this is going to happen.

HO's will be around until someone comes out with a total VR suit and cockpit. Then I think they might get tamed down a bit. I try to avoid the HO for the same reason I hate cheating at cards, it just don't feel right but there were times when I thought, in a shot up KI-43, that if that hog was going to finish me off I'm going to try and take him with me. Never did manage to HO. I always seemed to turn into a cloud off sawdust first

Gimp

[Quasar]

I think that collision should take place both with friends and foes. To make buff runs a possible thing, the collision would not occur when friend planes are on the ground.
[]'s

[Dinger]

Hehe.  Well my bet is this is one thread that's not going to result in any design changes.
Friendly-Friendly Collisions: not going to happen.  If I'm trying to fly formation with a buddy, in any online sim, the lag will make a difference in our positions.  So, if I'm the leader in an idiotenreihe (The most popular online foramtion), there's a good chance that, on the guy behind me's FE, I'm a lot closer, and I may inadvertently hit that guy.  Should we punish for this?
As for Friend-Enemy Collisions: A great feature of a previous product is the 1-sided collision.  Have you ever played CFS on line?   Not only are they HO dweebs, but you can dodge a plane by hundreds of yards, and yet explode when the other guy rams you on his FE.  Not a solution.
If you enable 1-sided collisions, at least you have a chance of cutting down on the rams.  And, let me tell you now, us bishops need all the sheep we can get.

[hitech]

You are correct Dinger we will have 1 way collisions and normal arena friendly collisions will be turned off.

As to how I do the collision detection that im still debating on.

HiTech

[burbank]

thanks for the reply HT
perhaps the collisions could be based the principle of each aircraft portion having the characteristics of a different calibre projectile.  For example:
your wing acts like a 50mm round - it hits the pilot, engine, centre fuselage - he is dead;  it hits their wing or empennage and they get appropriate damage.
your tailplane and wingtip act as a 20mm round, and causes appropriate damage to the part it hits.
Obviously your centre fuselage, and engine equal a large round - rocket/100lb bomb etc - you hit them nearly anywhere with it and they are getting a lot of damage all over.
And say a wingtip hits a tail fin, they both get the equivalent damage to a 20mm round hitting - may or may not blow something off!
This could work reciprocal - you hit their tail with your engine block - they get 100lb bomb equivalent damage to their rear fuselage and you get 20mm equivalent to your propellor/engine.

This is of course without knowing how the aircraft models are broken down into separate components - please excuse me if it is way way from practical - its just meant to be thought provoking!
cheers

[This message has been edited by burbank (edited 09-18-1999).]

[Boroda]

Hero of the Soviet Union Lt. Khlobystov returned to base after deliberately ramming _2_ 109s in one sortie. He flew a lend-leased P-40. Both rams were made with left wing. One ram in a HO, one - from the back.

I WANT to have an opportunity to survive after a precise deliberate ram.

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With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 09-19-1999).]

[-towd_]

that does it boroda im puttin you in for honorary Texan you got the SPIRIT.

and no dought you are  checkin the board 5 times a day for the beta announcement as am i lol...



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[Downtown]

I read about the P-40 that the AVG Flew, one of the Tigers Hit a Ki-43 with a wing, and flew home.  P-40s were tough planes.

If your going to take up precision ramming I would Reccomend the P-47 until the IL-2 Is modeled.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG