Ish -- Do the math

[Rolo]

Ish,

I was just talking about your idea with a game designer.  Consider this basic problem with the OAE design.

Start with this simple premise: For every kill scored by a character, another character's career ends.

Now let's set a minor goal for an online pilot--becoming an ace.  For this to happen, five characters must cease to exist for every ace.  Thus, only 1 in 6, or 16.7% of the characters can ever achieve this goal.  Accordingly, even minor success in the game will never be achieved by 83% of the characters.

Of course, 16.7% means that nobody but an ace has ever scored a kill.  Assume instead that non-ace pilots have an average of 1.4 kills before being dispatched.  This would mean that 12 characters (5 killed by the ace and 7 killed by the characters killed by the ace) would have to die for each character that becomes an ace.  Thus, 1 in 13, or 7.7%, of the characters would achieve ace status.  

Do you really think that there is going to be a continued and ongoing interest in a game where only 7% of the characters can hope to achieve the incredibly minor goal of 5 kills?  
Rolo

[chisel]

Jeeze!, and only 3.5% of us Luftwobbles will become Experten

I sense a conspiracy!

------------------
Chisel
5./JG5 'Ice Bears'

[ISHMAEL]

Now let's set a minor goal for an online pilot--becoming an ace. For this to happen, five characters must cease to exist for every ace. Thus, only 1 in 6, or 16.7% of the characters can ever achieve this goal. Accordingly, even minor success in the game will never be achieved by 83% of the characters.
-------

First of all, I don't accept your premise. Becoming an Ace is NOT an "increadibly minor goal." Achieving Ace status is a MAJOR GOAL!

Shooting down 5 enemy aircraft was worthy of a newspaper article on your life story during World War One (and a book deal after the war). I'd like to see the game blare trumpets and wave flags for any player who's alter ego becomes an Ace. That's a MAJOR accomplishment!

And remember that not all air victories result in the death of the pilot who was shot down. Pilots can (and do) bail out of their aircraft, surviving to fight another day. However, kills are credited even when the enemy pilot survives.

16.5% of alter egos become aces, but a higher percentage of players will experience becomeing an ace on occasion.

The proportion of Ace OAEs in the Beta Test to achieve Ace status was about 15% (which aproximates your figure), but as it was a WW1 sim, we didn't have any parachutes.

Even so, I expect that many players will have the experience of becoming an Ace, at least on occassion.

It just doesn't happen to ALL the players ALL of the time. It happens to some of the players much of the time and many of the players some of the time.

Thus the skilled players will become aces many times and the less skilled players will become aces few times.

Another factor increasing the odds of achieving ace status: Death is distributed on a bell curve as a factor of player skill. Less skilled pilots will fly more alter egos (as the less skilled die more often than the highly skilled). Each time one of the less skilled dies, he doesn't disapper. He creates a NEW alter ego that can also be shot down.

At root level, the OAE can be reduced to stats tracking from death to death with built-in bonuses based upon the length of time between those two points (and an option for the player to give a name to this line segment and call "it" a pilot).

That's all the OAE really is! It's a simulated pilot. Let's not complicate matters by calling it a "character" or we might get confused with images of complex and lengthy personal characteristics.

ISHMAEL

[lasse]

A squad mate of me had a streak of 85 (or so)  in WB, and as you know a streak ends if you get killed or shot down above enemy country.

So how many has those he shot down, shot down before he shot them down ?    

------------------
The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
lasse-

[This message has been edited by lasse (edited 09-22-1999).]

[Dancer]

If I remember correct, sy-c-- (a japanese
WB player) holds the streak record with more
than 200 kills in a row during one tour
of duty in WB.

Dancer out.

[Rolo]

 

Another factor increasing the odds of achieving ace status: Death is distributed on a bell curve as a factor of player skill. Less skilled pilots will fly more alter egos (as the less skilled die more often than the highly skilled). Each time one of the less skilled dies, he doesn't disapper. He creates a NEW alter ego that can also be shot down.

At root level, the OAE can be reduced to stats tracking from death to death with built-in bonuses based upon the
length of time between those two points (and an option for the player to give a name to this line segment and call "it" a pilot).

That's all the OAE really is! It's a simulated pilot. Let's not complicate matters by calling it a "character" or we might get confused with images of complex and lengthy personal characteristics.

BZZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer.

If the characters are not complex, where is the player's incentive to preserve the life of that character?  How do you encourage realism?  Is the only penalty for death the fact that my current stats come to end and I have to change my name?

If I'm an average pilot (or even an above average pilot) who has little chance of becoming an ace (or preserving that status once I do), what's to keep me from just engaging in the quake-like furballs that you complain of in WarBirds?  If I'm a good pilot with a long streak, I may seek to preserve it, just like those players in WarBirds who have that as their main objective.  Quite simply, if the only penalty for death is that  a character losses his current stats, the OAE does not significantly differ from other games in the market.

Rolo



[This message has been edited by Rolo (edited 09-22-1999).]

[-bmbm-]

The easiest way by far of implementing fear of death, and un-quaking an arena,  is to force pilots to fly a longer distance to the fight if they die.

No one but the altmonkeys like to fly for 10-20 minutes before they find a fight. The prospect of having to go through such a harrowing experience (g) should be enough to instil sufficient fear of death  

If you stay alive and land at a forward field, you may take off from there in your subsequent sortie (if you wish). Vulching will be limited too, given a fairly active AAA, since the vulchers  will be especially loath to spend said 10-15 minutes to the vulchees.

In a pay-per-hour arena, this is not feasible. In a flat-rate arena, it should work wonders. This state of affairs will also serve to push the fights up instead of down.

IMO there's no need for a roundabout and complex AlterEgo system, which anyhow cannot easily cope with borderline disco cases and death-defying pilots who couldn't care a rat's bellybutton about either their personal or country score.

Make It Simple, Stupid.

If AH continues down the less than innovative path of constant one-hop furballing, I for one won't even bother with downloading the FE regardless of eye-candy, FM fidelity and visibly moving control surfaces.

------------------
-bmbm-, XO 56th FG

[ISHMAEL]

Rolo....

--------
If the characters are not complex, where is the player's incentive to preserve the life of that character? How do you encourage realism? Is the only penalty for death the
fact that my current stats come to end and I have to change my name?
---------

I must assume that you have missed my indepth descriptions of how the OAE works.

The OAE is a system of BONUSES (either in points or powers) that a player incurres based upon the length of time between deaths. The "penalty" for death is not just the loss of stats but the elimination of any bonuses gained by virtue of longevity.

The most basic bonus is a point bonus.

Let's say a kill is worth 10 base points.

A first tier (novice) OAE scoring a kill is awarded 10 points. However, a second tier (veteran) alter ego (one that has survived X number of hours) scores 20 points for the kill. A Third tier (elite) alter ego (one that has survived X(x2) hours) scores 30 points for the kill. And so on....

Death resets the bonus structure to first tier for all alter egos.

Aditional bonuses (like rank or SA key range increases, or access to special aircraft) are also reset to novice level.

Note that this is a LINEAR process. All alter egos of equal longevity are exactly alike in ability. There are no "unique" characteristics (other than the player) and this keeps complexity at a minimum.

Hopefully that makes it a little more clear to you.

ISHMAEL

[Goshen]

 <G> *yawn*

Goshen

[ISHMAEL]

This point bears repeating as it very susinctly expresses the totality of the AOE concept:

At root level, the OAE can be reduced to stats tracking from death to death with built-in bonuses based upon the length of time between those two points (and an option for the player to give a name to this line segment and call "it" a pilot).

The longer a player survives between deaths to more powers he gains. What the powers are remains undefined but they may include:

1. Point bonuses for kills (a multiple applied to the base point value that increases with longevity)
2. Higher rank and possible access to "command screens"
3. Access to "short-supply" aircraft
4. Access to "experiemental" aircraft
5. Increased SA view key potency (slew views function at greater ranges).

These rewards are offered to players as an incentive to remain alive. One reward is offered per experience tier (which would require X number of hours survived in the arena). The longer the OAE survives, the higher it climbs on the experience tier - gaining more rewards.

Once the OAE dies however, the player is reset to tier one and must start over.

The "Naming" of the OAE is optional but can certainly contribute to the fun factor for many players.

ISHMAEL

[Rolo]

Hmmm. More points for staying alive longer.  That sounds vaguely familiar.  Didn't WarBirds once have a scoring system where things such as streaks and K/D ratio have an effect on the points earned during a sortie?  By Jove, I believe it did.

Of course, the vast majority of WB players don't play for points.  

Maybe we could encourage players to be interested in points by giving them "bonuses" likes hats, t-shirts, and free time for high scores.  What?  Oh yeah, been there, done that.

Maybe the incentives should be in the game.  Aye, captain, look. Thar's an idea blowin' off the port bow.

 

3. Access to "short-supply" aircraft
4. Access to "experiemental" aircraft
5. Increased SA view key potency (slew views function at greater ranges).

Arrgh, that's it.  We'll make the most deadly pilots even more deadly.  A level playing field is for land lubbers and sissies.  'Tis time for us to feast upon the newbies.  Who cares if they come back so long as they came for lunch.  Fetch my harpoon.

Rolo

[Dogfyter]

Rolo, some just don't see past their own demands. Thanks for the belly laugh, haven't had one of those in a while..
I fly in AW3, and I like the scoring system they have, with full points awarded for landing(a good landing mind you) your kills, half points for bailing out, and 25% of possible points if you crash or get shot down. All planes are available to all pilots, no special this or that... IMHO, the way it should be.. Doggy..  

[Horn]

LoL! Thanks fer the laugh, Counselor! Some folks are not even limited to their own repetitiveness...I personally have no use for a RPG character (EQ w/ planes?)--I like my flyin and killin in the first person....  

And....what Doggy sed about points. AW does some things correctly.

dh