Author Topic: Plane crash(es...now plural) update... (Read 515 times)

jigsaw · « **on:** May 20, 2004, 12:41:41 AM »

So I walk into work this morning and see a big display of flowers, books to sign, photos, etc. and I think...That was a nice of them to do for the Pan Am guys.

Then I was talking to one of the dispatchers and got "You hadn't heard?". Since I had driven out to CA last week, I hadn't...

Last Thursday morning our flight school had it's first fatal accident. A student, instructor, and observer sitting in the back crashed a Seminole. All three where killed. Of the three, I only knew the person observing. A morbid twist to the death was that the person observing had been writing a critique of the manuevers as they were performing them and his notes were found at the crash site. As near as they can figure, they were performing a power on stall when the instructor simulated an engine failure/Vmc condition. This ended up in a flat spin from which they were unable to recover.

The San Diego crash -
Was indeed two private rated pilots in a Seminole. IMHO, that's just wrong in the first place. There were three Pan Am Seminoles in trail of each other, flying into the San Diego area. ATC got the call signs confused and told the plane furthest out to descend instead of the one closest in. They descended into terrain.
Pan Am uses "company" call signs such as "Pan Am 32" instead of full tail numbers, so it's somewhat easy to see how a controller could have made the error.

As sad as these events are, hopefully it can save someone elses life in the future if they can see the big pictures here. In the WSA case, "Know you're planes limitations and stay within a safe margin." In the PA case "Know exactly where you are and what's around you before you make a change in your flight profile" and "Don't accept a clearance that is not safe."

Memorial services were held locally while I was gone. The WSA student's families are also holding services in their respective home towns.

Sorry if this brings the mood of the board down any, but for those of you that are pilots, please please take things like this to heart and be safe when you're up there.

gofaster · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2004, 07:52:45 AM »

Good information. You should consider writing in to AvWeb so the word gets out.

rpm · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2004, 08:06:06 AM »

My condolences.

Dago · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2004, 09:30:56 AM »

A simulated engine failure during a power on stall???

Is that something your company makes a habit of? If so, I would quit as quick as possible.

Why not just give him a simulated rudder jam towards the dead engine too, and make sure it's the critical engine that failed, that is if you are trying to commit suicide in a twin?

Aviation can be very unforgiving, and any Instructor who would give a student a simulated engine failure during a power on stall at Vmc is a fool in my opinion.

Vmc is obviously no place to play games.

dago

CyranoAH · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2004, 10:20:25 AM »

My thoughts exactly Dago, what was he thinking??

Daniel

jigsaw · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2004, 06:56:51 PM »

Got a bit more information today. The WSA plane had it's gear down, so no, it was not something that happened during a power on (intentional anyway) stall. Company policy is to do power on's with the gear up. I talked to the examiner that had given four checkrides for the instructor (not his mei though) involved in the crash and he was still scratching his head over the whole thing as he says the CFI had a personality that didn't lend itself to taking chances.

I'm gonna hold off posting any more updates until I have some hard facts. My earlier post already lead to much speculation.
It was posted while I was still pretty upset over the news and just wanted to stress things like Dago and Cyr mentioned such as "Don't mess with Vmc."

My apologies for any confusion I might have caused.

Dago · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2004, 08:25:33 PM »

Jigsaw, my condolences on the loss of friends. Anyone in aviation long enough will have these experiences. (about 27yrs now in aviation)

I wonder if it is possible they put the gear down in an attempt to recover from the spin? The gear has an effect on Vmc, and also it is possible they were doing an approach to landing stall with plane dirty. (dramatic break)

The only good that can come from such an icident is that we learn from it and avoid the same situation in the future.

dago

jigsaw · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2004, 08:56:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dago
Jigsaw, my condolences on the loss of friends. Anyone in aviation long enough will have these experiences. (about 27yrs now in aviation)

I wonder if it is possible they put the gear down in an attempt to recover from the spin? The gear has an effect on Vmc, and also it is possible they were doing an approach to landing stall with plane dirty. (dramatic break)

The only good that can come from such an icident is that we learn from it and avoid the same situation in the future.

dago

Thanks Dago. It's the first time I've known someone that was in a crash.

The examiner and I spent a good while playing "what if" trying to come up with possible scenarios. I mentioned the gear like you, as well as trying assymetric thrust, etc. We didn't have enough info to come up with anything other than the fact of "they augered".

Was searching for news articles earlier and came up with this one;

http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=1865381

It has the best photos and news copter clips so far. Wierded me out to think of how many times I've flown that plane. It had been dubbed "Barney" by the school as it was the only one in the area with that paint scheme.

Talking to another CFI friend of mine this morning and he was telling me how he'd been getting ready to go to work that morning, saw the news report, got nervous, saw the paint scheme, got queezy, then called dispatch to see if it was ours. Said he almost tossed breakfast when he was told that Barney was out, then then he saw the tail number on the news.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2004, 09:17:36 PM »

Wow....I've allways wanted to get into real piloting but I've never had the time (two young children) My brothers best friend was qualifying for his private and has WITNESSED Three crashes int he process. He keeps saying he doesnt want to fly but keeps going back up for joy rides. It's gotta be tough for pilots when they lose thier friends to accidents...especially when they might be avoidable....not sure by the lingo wether this one was or not

Condolences either way.

On a flip note the first thing I worry about with my job when I hear of a military crash was wether the pilot punched out or not. I maintain ejection seats and you really dont know what it feels like when you hear of a crash and havnt gotten word weather the pilot made it out.......and you know you worked on that Egress system recently

Yeager · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2004, 09:57:44 PM »

fascinating! tragic.

Sounds like the kind of thing you would train a combat pilot for
(ie high risk).

Dago · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2004, 10:33:34 PM »

Vmc is the minimum control speed; the lowest speed at which the airplane is controllable when one engine is inoperative and the other engine is operating at full power. In other words, it's the speed where if you get below this in a twin with an engine out, your world just went to ****. You will probably enter a spin, and Twins are not known to recover from spins well, if at all.