F6F: Weak tail?

[Soulyss]

I dunno, how other people are defining it, but when I say I lost the tail I mean the plane vanishes from just aft of  the cockpit back.

the Mk10H would be the hispano gun correct?

I would imagine that 1-2 hits from some 20mm or larger would render either the vert tab/rudder or part of the horizontal stab useless... but I would think it would take something much larger than that to break a plane's back.

[Urchin]

Oh, I've always defined "losing the tail" as above.  Usually takes more than 1 round to do that, but I've seen it before.

[Shuckins]

20mm was an explosive round...so any hit within a reasonable range will cause considerable damage.

Some early F6F-3s had their tail structures fail when the tailhook grabbed the wire during carrier qualifications.  As with any such problem involving a Grumman aircraft, Roy Grumman and crew used the Swindler factor to fix it...i.e. doubling the strength of the part in question.  After they did so no undamaged Hellcat tail would fail during a carrier landing.  Catastrophic failures of any kind on any Grumman product were almost unknown.

The only other problem involving the Hellcat's structure was the tendency of the horizontal stabilizers to warp if the aircraft exceeded it's posted dive limit speed.  One stabilizer would bend up by 15 degrees and the other would bend down by 15 degrees.  This problem was handled in the same way as the other...the aluminum skinning was strengthened on two different occasions on test aircraft until the stabilizers no longer warped.  The dive limit speed of the F6F-5 could thus be raised by about 40 knots over that of the F6F-3 without the stabilizer problem reappearing.

I've seen photographs of Spitfires that took multiple 15 and 20mm hits in the after fuselage without the empennage failing.  The Hellcat's structure was even stronger.  I can't image two or three 20mm hits would cause it to fail unless the fuselage was already under tremendous stress.

Enemy pilots were often dumbfounded by the amount of damage American radial-engined fighters could take.  Hellcat, Corsair, and Thunderbolt airframes could take a severe beating and continue to fly.  The same could not be said for the ballerina-like in-line engine fighters.

[GScholz]

Those cannot be 20mm hits.





Russian 20mm damage on a Finnish Hurri:







This is from a single 30mm:

[Shuckins]

Note that the metal-ribbed structure of the Hurricane is still intact.  The fabric skinning has, however, been peeled away.  Whether that was the result of the 20mm hits or high-speed wind damage or a combination of the two is impossible to tell.

The 20mm hits on metal-skinning that I have seen aren't nearly as dramatic as that but still cause considerable damage.  Holes in the metal skinning were about a foot wide.  

Have you ever seen the picture of Robert Johnson's Razorback P-47 that was hit by a 20mm behind the cockpit.  The aluminum had a hole about that size with the edges curled up...preventing Johnson from being able to jettison his canopy and bail out.  On his return flight to England he was also shot up by an FW-190...whose pilot apparently ran out of ammunition.  He flew a wingtip-to-wingtip formation with Johnson for a time, shaking his head at the condition of the Thunderbolt, then waggled his wings and returned to base, leaving a relieved Johnson to return unmolested to England

[GScholz]

That was Egon Meyer. He only had 7.92mm ammo left and emptied his guns into that P-47, then escorted the Jug out of flak range.

[J_A_B]

Perhaps in a case of ultimate irony, Meyer was later shot dwn and killed by a P-47.


J_A_B

[Urchin]

Nah, it would only be "ultimate irony" if Johnson did it.

[DrDea]

That was  "Long flight home" from Johnsons  Thunderbolt.really good read too.

[airbumba]

Originally posted by Jasta
Ive noticed that 99.9% of the time when I die, my tail comes off. I dont know if people are always aiming for it or what, but ive noticed this the most in Patch 6. The tail always seems to be the first thing to go, and it negates the sturdy qualities of the Hellcat for me.

Anyone else notice this? Am I dreaming? or do people just aim for the tail?

Ditto

[Jasta]

i would like mathman to wheigh in on this...

so if you please mathman.

also, im looking for some lessons in the kitty if you want to help

[Tabasco]

Originally posted by GScholz
Those cannot be 20mm hits.....

Russian 20mm damage on a Finnish Hurri:


Those are actually pics of a French-built Morane-Saulnier fighter, probably an MS-406 registered as MS-650, as is hand written on the photos (just FYI).

http://www.histaviation.com/Ms_406_photoarchive.html

[GScholz]

Ok, thanks! It looks so deceptivly like a Hurri in those pictures.