Author Topic: combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn  (Read 1125 times)

Offline terracota

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
      • http://members.fortunecity.com/terracota
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« on: August 11, 2000, 09:43:00 AM »
Hello everybody
I'm a little confused about flaps

I readed that using a noch or 2 of flaps can tigth your turn , ok now I'm flying the HOG

think that I'm in a hog with not enogth E to go vertical so I must go flat turn...

here I go with my questions:
1-when is usefull to use it? I mean at wich speed is better, because if I have a good  speed I think is not good idea to use it because the quick lost of speed if Im to slow I will be more slow, ok best speed to use them?

2-when should I use them ?,just when flat turning?

3-the use of flaps makes an angles figther even better turner?  

I appreciate any help  

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2000, 12:17:00 PM »
Planes that have combat flaps can use them to increase lift at the cost of extra drag.  This is only possible or reasonable at low speads.  Generally, you want to feed in flaps one notch at a time as you slow down to help increase your lift and hence your turn-rate a bit.  Be aware though, that you increase your turn rate at the expense of more drag, and that means you slow down faster.  You really only want to use flaps for short periods of time to get over the top of a loop, or make those last couple of degrees for a killing shot.

When to use flaps?  Depends on the plane, but in the Hog I start to use them below 200 IAS if I need to turn or manuever quickly.  One notch down to say 170, two at 150 or so, three at 130, four or more if I'm going slower, or I'm out of options.  Normally going beyond 4 notches in the Hog will just stop you.  Experiment with the flaps at very low speeds so you know what works best, and what they feel like.

I use flaps more when doing verticle manuevers.  I will use 2-3 notches of flap at the top of any manuever that takes me up higher where I slow down below 200.  As you get your nose down, reel the flaps back in to accellerate as fast as possible.  If you have to use flaps when flat-turning, you are in serious trouble in a Hog.  If you need to, pop flaps only for a short time, and only to get a kill or evade.

Most typically "angles" fighters CAN benefit from flap usage at the right times, just like any other plane.  Generally, only planes with multi-position "combat" flaps get any benefit from using them.  However, generally if you are flying an "angles" fighter, you shouldn't need the extra bit of turn.  I use flaps in a turn fighter more for slowing down than for turning tighter.

You should also think about what flaps do.  Yes, they make you turn tighter, but also slower.  This means that although you can turn a tighter circle, your turn rate may be slower.  If you are turning flat with flaps, you need to do a turn-radius fight, which is to say a 1 circle fight.  You and the other guy need to be chasing each other's tail in a big circle.  If you turn one way and he turns the other, you will have a 2 circle fight, where the fighter with the better turn RATE has a good chance to win.  If you are using flaps to turn, be sure to turn the same direction as the other guy so you can capitalize on your smaller turn-radius.

I hope that helps.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 

"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 08-15-2000).]

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2000, 02:48:00 PM »
on all US fighters as far as I know, if you are below 250 mph and want to turn good (or get into a turn fight), Flaps are the only thing that will give you an edge. Specially in P-38.

Offline terracota

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
      • http://members.fortunecity.com/terracota
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2000, 03:11:00 PM »
sure it helps a lot
thak's  

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2000, 07:08:00 AM »
Just a quick bit to add...

Don't rely on those airspeeds I gave too heavily, I think they are a bit slow even.  You can use flaps to good effect at faster speeds, as long as you remember they are costing you in drag.  The best thing to do is to spend some time in the TA or offline just playing around and testing your bird of choice.

One other tip.  If you plan to fight slow with flaps extended, trim your plane at that slow speed with flaps extended before you enter the fight.  It's rare to do this, but in something like a 1v1 duel you may need that extra edge that a perfectly trimmed plane will give you to make the critical shot.  You can pull the flaps in and use manual trim on the way to the fight, and then put the same ammount of opposite trim in as you slow down and extend flaps, to bring you to perfectly trimmed status with flaps out and slow, right when you really need it.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

Offline Andy Bush

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • http://www.simhq.com  (Contributing Editor - Air Combat Corner)
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2000, 04:35:00 PM »
Lephturn

Good post...one minor item:

>. If you are using flaps to turn, be sure to turn the same direction as the other guy so you can capitalize on your increased turn-radius.<<

Flaps decrease your turn radius!! In a one circle fight, the flaps reduce your required turning room at the expense of turn rate.

Andy

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2000, 09:32:00 AM »
Tarracota,

DO NOT flat turn in an F4U unless your 6 is clear and you are tracking for a kill shot.
In a defensive situation you will have much better luck dropping no more than two knotches of flap and sissoring from side to side. You will bleed E quickly a can often go from defense to offense in a flash. But only do this on the deck when you cannot use virtical maneuvers.The F4U is tough and can take some lead but beware of cannon birds in this manuever. Especially the N1KI.

If you have enough altitude and you are attacked from the rear wait until you oppenent closes to within D1.4 and split s away watching your 6 view to make sure he does not follow(I have done this repeatedly to A/C until they get frustrated and give up). Generally if your foe is closing fast he will not. If he is closing slow then they might take the trip with you. If they do follow you do not use flaps. Simply maintain a dive but spiral(TIGHT Spiral) on the way down. The F4U does not accellerate into dives quickly in A/H. So use this to your advantage. The secret to this move is to make sure your speed in under 300MPH TAS and drop you gear(DIVE BREAK) while spiraling. Your foe will rocket past you. Then retract your gear and go kill them. The F4U does dive well in AH once you build up speed. The Pony, FW190, P-38 and JUG also dive well at high speed but you can eventually catch all but the Pony. The 190 also requires patience because of E retention.

On offense unless you are seconds away from victory do not flat turn. Use your speed to pull up virtical and watch your foe burn his E flat turning. Then simply roll on your wing to find your target and go shoot him.
If you have NME in the area do not loop straight over the top. Go in to the loop at a slight angle so you are harder to track. Simple but effective.

Remember, just because the F4U does not climb exceptionally does not mean that it is poor in virtical maneuvers. It is a GREAT energy vehical when used properly. Just remember not to pull more than 3 G's when entering these maneuvers and you will not burn E. Pull to hard and your a dead duck with no alt.

Will be glad to show you in the SEA if you see me up.

Later
F4UDOA

Offline terracota

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
      • http://members.fortunecity.com/terracota
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2000, 10:02:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Tarracota,

Will be glad to show you in the SEA if you see me up.

Later
F4UDOA

Sure thing I will watch for future events  

tnx to all by the help , now I will try to hang with the f4u-d by some time  

Offline RAM

  • Parolee
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2000, 01:02:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by terracota:


tnx to all by the help , now I will try to hang with the f4u-d by some time  

Luv you man!  

hehehe, hope that all people who are learning act like you...going for the hard plane instead of the easy one.

S!...y ya sabes cuando necesites ayuda...dame un toque  

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2000, 01:42:00 PM »
I fixed that Andy.  

When I said "Increased turn radius", I meant a smaller turn radius.  IE: a better one.  

I edited the post and fixed it.  Thanks!

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

Offline terracota

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
      • http://members.fortunecity.com/terracota
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2000, 09:42:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by RAM:
Luv you man!  

hehehe, hope that all people who are learning act like you...going for the hard plane instead of the easy one.

S!...y ya sabes cuando necesites ayuda...dame un toque  

pos claro campeon, cuando te vea te cacho  


Offline hblair

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4051
      • http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2000, 11:29:00 AM »
I fly the G10 and rarely touch the flaps except on landing.

My logic is if I'm going slow enough to drop my flaps, I'm going way too slow!  

Offline Rocket

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 403
combat flaps- speed vrs. tigth turn
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2000, 08:04:00 PM »
Flaps: The only time I use them is defense spiral trying to force the overshoot.  I drop a couple of notches of flap, gear(The dive breaks on the hog), and cross control into a spiral dive. Once they overshoot pull all up and give chase or extend away to fight the fight on your terms later!!!

Other than that flaps get me killed.  I avoid any other uses.


S!
Rocket