Author Topic: Interesting reading I found.  (Read 913 times)

Offline o0Stream140o

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Interesting reading I found.
« on: November 21, 2004, 11:56:34 AM »
Flight and Combat Training

At an early stage in the Pacific War, the IJNAF had made a decision about the conduct of the war which was to have far reaching consequences. Training of new pilots was cut back. This put all of its aerial strength "up front" and enabled it to compete with the Americans and their allies on more even basis. The U.S. embargo on petroleum had been the most immediate cause of the war for the Japanese and they remained short of it for the rest of the war--even after the capture of Dutch oilfields in Indonesia. (The gasoline was not where it was needed. American submarine captains understood this situation and deliberately sought out oil tankers as high-priority targets.)

The Americans, by contrast, chose exactly the opposite strategy after the war was just a few months old. After a short period of trying to put their own stength "up front", they deliberately retained their best pilots as flight instructors for future waves of candidate pilots. They invested large quantities of gasoline in the training of new pilots. They built large numbers of training aircraft and retained increasing numbers of less capable combat planes in the continental U.S. for training purposes as more advanced types became available. To be sure, this meant that during the first year or so of the war, that the U.S. Navy and USAAF would have fewer men and fewer planes "up front".

On the other hand, once this much larger system began to deliver newly trained pilots and new aircraft to the theaters of war, the IJNAF would have no hope of fighting them off. From being sworn in, put through boot camp, put into primary flight training and then into advanced flight training, it took about one year for the U.S. Navy or USAAF to train a pilot and assign him to an operational unit. Significantly, a little over a year after the start of the Pacific War, the pilots of the Imperial Navy began to find themselves outnumbered. It seemed to the front line pilots as if the Americans had inexhaustible sources of warplanes and pilots. And this was somewhat before the Americans were able to introduce newer aircraft types.

Alleged American racial superiority was dangerous nonsense in the life and death situations of aerial combat, but there was an area in which the USA did have a human or manpower advantage. The USA, at that time, had a population of about 150 million, versus Japan's population of about 90 million. However, the age composition of the American population favored young men, so the actual pool of them was substantially larger than the comparable Japanese pool. Of course, the output of American pilots would have to be divided between the Pacific War (South Pacific Theater, South West Pacific Theater), the CBI Theater and the European Theater of Operations (the ETO).

Bad as this situation might have seemed to be from the Japanese side, it was actually worse.

To be sure, this didn't quite make them qualified aviation mechanics or pilots, but most young American men of that generation had driven or maintained an automobile and many of them had also handled guns. In pre-war Japan, individually owned automobiles were a rarity and so were private firearms. In training aviation mechanics and pilots, American instructors could take many things for granted.

In the pre-war years, the IJNAF had chosen to train a very small number of pilots to a very high degree. The modern air force which most closely follows this path is the Israeli Air Force. Note how seriously the Israelis were affected by the loss of about 100 aircraft and pilots in the Yom Kippur war of 1973. The Japanese were at least equally vulnerable to attrition prior to the Pacific War. How could the Japanese have compensated for the loss of 300 pilots at Midway by pre-war standards? If they had had no further losses at all, it would have taken them two or three years to train that many pilots at pre-war rates.

By the middle of 1943, the IJNAF was frantically attempting to overcome all of these disadvantages with tools wholly inadequate to the purpose. The training of pilots was pushed as high as it could be, but there were serious problems. Instructor pilots were still scarce and many potential flight instructors had died at the Battle of Midway, in the Solomon Islands or elsewhere. In the United States, comparable experienced pilots were alive and instructing other pilots. Shortening the amount of training was tried and, by the last year of the war, Japanese pilots were being pushed into combat missions with as little as 100 hours of flight time. (By contrast, American pilots at that stage of the war[1944] would have had more than 300 hours of flight time.) When these pilots entered combat they were terrified novices, easy marks for American pilots. Even rookie American pilots were better off than this. As for experienced Japanese pilots, those who were still alive were also gradually being killed off in combat. Nor did a Japanese student pilot have to die in combat--many of them died in flying accidents, particularly when they were pushed into the cockpits of fast, unforgiving fighters. Flying accidents and training fatalities were common enough in the continental United States, but anecdotes give the impression that they were much more common in Japan.

PLEASE GO READ THE REST

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijnaf.htm

MY NOTE ***ALLIED EXAMPLE:
VMF-124 and VMF-213 were ordered aboard the USS Essex on December 28, 1944 at Ulithi Lagoon. The Marines replaced our Dive-Bomber Squadron (VB-4). This change meant that the Essex now had a compliment of 55 F6F-5s, 36 F4U-1Ds, and 15 TBM-3Cs.
"At the time of reporting to USS Essex, each pilot had had an average of 12 carrier landings (qualifications in San Diego and Hawaiian area aboard the USS Macassar Straits, USS Saratoga, and USS Bataan). Each pilot had an average total of about 400 hours flight time in the Corsair type fighter." Now compare that to an IJAAF pilot flying a J2M3, Ki-84, or a Ki-100 with only 100-200 hours of TOTAL flight time which probably only a few hours high performance type.
http://www.airgroup4.com/marines.htm


Stream14

Offline KootDawg

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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2004, 11:32:08 AM »
Very interesting facts...

Crude oil was a hugh factor but training was the biggest....

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2004, 02:00:04 PM »
Yup.

That is why the US fans will never get the Marianas Turkey Shoot in a MMOG flight sim.  The skill level of each side is too close, and even with crippling Japanese fuel the Japanese fighters are good enough to put up quite a fight.  The only way to try to even approach historical kill ratios is for the US players to fly extremely conservatively, even more so than was done in reality.
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Offline Jester

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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2004, 02:18:47 PM »
Just think about how many "Hours" you have behind the stick of just your favorite aircraft, not to mention TOTAL time you have in all the other aircraft types.

Also to mention the knowlege level in A2A Combat Tactics as well as the capability of what Enemy Aircraft will do in a dogfight.

I am sure many Airforces of the WW2 era would have "WET DOWN BOTH LEGS" for a pool of pilots with the experience of most of the pilots here in AH.

"Walk with you head held high!" :aok

!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 03:06:20 PM by Jester »
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Offline Clifra Jones

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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2004, 02:59:41 PM »
This illustrates the myth of the Kamikazi pilots. While these pilots were no doubt indoctrinated in the "die for the emperor" ideology the real reason for this tactic was they were going to die anyway. Far to many of these pilots would get into a fight in a Zeke and go into a dive and lock up the controls and lawn dart into the sea.

Offline Clifra Jones

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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2004, 03:03:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jester
Just think about how many "Hours" you have behind the stick of just your favorite aircraft, not to mention TOTAL time you have in all the other aircraft types.

Also to mention the knowlege level in A2A Combat Tactics as well as the capability of what Enemy Aircraft.

I am sure many Airforces of the WW2 era would have "WET DOWN BOTH LEGS" for a pool of pilots with the experience of most of the pilots here in AH.

"Walk with you head held high!" :aok

!


No doubt. Some day soon (sooner than we may think) this is how air combat is going to performed. Remotely controlled aircraft. Our grandkids are going to grow up ready to "hit the skies" in thier "virtual" cockpits.

So you see. AH is actually training the future Aces of the world.:aok

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2004, 03:09:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Clifra Jones
This illustrates the myth of the Kamikazi pilots. While these pilots were no doubt indoctrinated in the "die for the emperor" ideology the real reason for this tactic was they were going to die anyway. Far to many of these pilots would get into a fight in a Zeke and go into a dive and lock up the controls and lawn dart into the sea.

What I've read certainly painted a different picture than the "Happy to die for the emperor" kamikaze pilot so many are familiar with.  That was propaganda.  In reality the vast majority did not want to do it.  They wanted to live, but Japanese society being what it was most did it anyways.  But they were neither happy nor joyous about it.  They were scared.
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Offline Clifra Jones

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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2004, 03:28:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
What I've read certainly painted a different picture than the "Happy to die for the emperor" kamikaze pilot so many are familiar with.  That was propaganda.  In reality the vast majority did not want to do it.  They wanted to live, but Japanese society being what it was most did it anyways.  But they were neither happy nor joyous about it.  They were scared.


Same here. Most didn't want to die. I've also read that most of the guys doing the fighting for Japan had very little respect for thier superiors. Promotion in the Japanese military was more about politics than sound leadership. They seemed to have no regard for the lives of thier men.

I've often wondered how this war would have played out if the Axis powers had had real quality leadership instead of the bunglers that were running things.

Offline Clifra Jones

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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2004, 03:38:53 PM »
Quotes from SABURO SAKAI

On Kamikaze tactics and pilots
A lot of Westerners looked at the kamikaze strategy with complete shock, the idea of putting a kid in a plane and telling him to kill himself by crashing into the enemy. But even if you don't tell him to crash into something, putting a kid with only about 20 hours flight time into a plane and telling him to take on U.S. pilots in Hellcats and Corsairs is just as much a suicidal tactic as being a kamikaze. We figured that if they're going to die anyway, the kamikaze attack will probably cause more damage to the enemy for the same price in lives.
But let me tell you, all that stuff you read about "dying for the emperor...Banzai!" that's all crap. There wasn't one kamikaze pilot or soldier out there who was thinking anything about the emperor when they were facing death. They were thinking about their mother and their family, just like anybody else. The reason those final letters home that they wrote are so filled with emperor glorification stuff is because they knew the censors would read them, and because they simply wanted to try to make their parents proud.


On the IJN leadership
Promotions in the Navy were based on what school you graduated from and who you knew, it had nothing to do with merit. Some guy could smash up 20 planes trying to learn how to fly, and then not shoot down a damn thing and he'd be promoted faster than me or any other successful pilot simply because he came from the right school. Those were the kinds of idiots we had leading us. How were we supposed to win the war with leadership like that? Take that idiot [Minoru] Genda. He could barely fly, but he jumped up and down about the Shiden-kai ["George"], so everybody else pretended to like it, too. That plane was a piece of crap, put together by a third-rate firm [Kawanishi].

Also from From Andy Wilson, who met with Sakai
Sakai was an enlisted flyer and disliked the Academy officers. He especially disliked Genda, who was one of those who never fought in a single battle and spend his entire career on his butt. Sakai seemed to reserve special disdain for those who talked without doing; especially if they talked plans that led to the death of simple soldiers and sailors who didn't want to have any part in the officers' war, but willingly left their homes and loved ones to do their duty to country. Sakai told me that he and many of his fellow flyers knew in their hearts from the beginning that Japan could not beat America. They knew it was a lost cause from the start, but were willing to die for their beloved Nippon (not for the Emperor--who was too distant and mostly an abstraction for them, though they'd never admit such to their superiors).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2004, 03:44:03 PM by Clifra Jones »

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2004, 03:40:53 PM »
Had they "real" leadership there wouldn't have been any war!

Not on a world war level, anyways.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2004, 03:47:31 PM »
Interesting quotes, would you mind sharing where they are from?  I'm especially interested in the comments on the Shiden, since in his book SAMURAI! he talked about how much he loved flying it.  I have a couple of old interviews he did.  He did seem to speak his mind without too much worry.  

Thanks.

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Offline Clifra Jones

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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2004, 03:59:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Had they "real" leadership there wouldn't have been any war!

Not on a world war level, anyways.


Depends on your definition of World War. I'm sure those brilliant decisions to attack the U.S. (Japan) and invade Russia (Germany)would have been given some deeper thought.

And that most excellent decision to stop attacking the airfields and leave the radar station alone and start bombing cities during the BoB. (Hermann you were such a genius!)

Offline Clifra Jones

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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2004, 04:05:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Interesting quotes, would you mind sharing where they are from?  I'm especially interested in the comments on the Shiden, since in his book SAMURAI! he talked about how much he loved flying it.  I have a couple of old interviews he did.  He did seem to speak his mind without too much worry.  

Thanks.

SA2


Came from here: http://www.warbirdforum.com/sakai.htm

Can't vouch for their accuracy. These were from an interview in 1998.

This surprised me also when I read it. I've always considered the NIK2 to be a fine aircraft.

He comes off rather opinionated in this interview. There's a quote where he really gives it to the peaceniks in Japan.

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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Interesting reading I found.
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2004, 12:15:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Quotes from SABURO SAKAI

On Kamikaze tactics and pilots
A lot of Westerners looked at the kamikaze strategy with complete shock, the idea of putting a kid in a plane and telling him to kill himself by crashing into the enemy. But even if you don't tell him to crash into something, putting a kid with only about 20 hours flight time into a plane and telling him to take on U.S. pilots in Hellcats and Corsairs is just as much a suicidal tactic as being a kamikaze. We figured that if they're going to die anyway, the kamikaze attack will probably cause more damage to the enemy for the same price in lives.
But let me tell you, all that stuff you read about "dying for the emperor...Banzai!" that's all crap. There wasn't one kamikaze pilot or soldier out there who was thinking anything about the emperor when they were facing death. They were thinking about their mother and their family, just like anybody else. The reason those final letters home that they wrote are so filled with emperor glorification stuff is because they knew the censors would read them, and because they simply wanted to try to make their parents proud.


The Americans (okinawa) lost 36 ships. 368 ships were also damaged. 763 aircraft were destroyed. The Japanese lost 16 ships sunk and over 4,000 aircraft were lost.

I dont know totals but I read somewere out of about 196 kamikazes, 25 made it to ships sinking 21.

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2004, 12:24:38 AM »
This may be a total:

The ultimate image of Japanese determination and desperation in the war is that of the Kamikaze pilot, a young man sworn to crash his airplane directly into an enemy vessel to destroy it. Nearly 4,000 Kamikaze aircraft managed to sink or damage over 300 Allied ships and kill or injure more than 15,000 Allied sailors.