Resizing from 2048 = crap.

[Octavius]

argh.

Alright, first time I worked in 2048.  It's great to work with I'm finding, but damnit the resize is sucking majorly.

I'm using PSP8.  All panel lines are vectors at 2.00 width, rivets are at 2 pixels.

When I resize using Smart Size, Pixel Resize, bicubic, bilinear, weighted average, or ANYTHING, I get the same garbage result.  The rivets become fuzzy and utter crap.  Could the rivet size (2) be the cause of the problem?

[Waffle]

Try using a pixel dot for your rivets, as well as panel lines. Also be sure to use the pen tool instead of the airbrush for your lines.

When you use a 2point brush on a 2048 drawing -well, it's the same as a 1point brush on a 1024.

Using a 1 point brush in 2048 "SHOULD" result in a smaller smoother line when you resize down to 1024

I've been trying some in 2048 and then after I'm finished -then reduce image size down to 1024. It's so so looking, but with any reduction, there is still going to some blurring.

As far as correcting what you've already done - try color selecting black on each layer -do so with low fuzzines untill you get the lines / rivets only selected.

Then goto modify and select "contract" set this to contract by one pixel. then selct inverse. Erase around a few lines and rivets and see what happens.


FYI -bothe ki84 and b24 that I did started in 2048. They're pics posted somewhere in this forum. after resize

[Kev367th]

Been toying with using 2048x2048.
Haven't for one reason.
Once you do the initial resize down to 1024 to 1024 there is a lot of resampling/anti-aliasing done. Might look good at 1024, what happens if ingame people use it at 512 or 256, thats 1 or 2 MORE resampling/anti-aliasing passes done on it.

[United]

Oct, heres a little trick I use in rivets in 2048x2048 size.  It is done in PSP8, so everything should work the same.  So far, i have had no problems in resizing.

http://www.ahskinning.netfirms.com/riveting.html

[Octavius]

United I havent messed with the line tool for rivets... Never putzed enough to get a decent looking rivet line out of it.  I've been doing it the old fashion way one at a time.  If I have to redo the rivet layer, I'll try your way tonight.

[Waffle]

using a pen tool and a spacing setup on your brush  is the only way to do rivets...lol. If your still on rivets - I'll finish my ki67 panel lines and rivets tonite That after a day off from doing a reformat and setting up a raid array...hmmm hope I backed it up.....lmao

[Dux]

I know some of you guys think that you're getting more detail by working in 2048, but you're really not. You can never go smaller than  a pixel... it's an absolute unit... so you may as well work in 1024. A one-pixel rivet is never going to become a half-pixel rivet. Same goes for a one-pixel panel line.

Also, think of it in terms of even and odd rows... a pixel on row 20 is going to resample very differently than on row 21, because resampling is like throwing out every other row.

Kev is absolutely right about resampling and anti-aliasing... avoid it. The less you mess with a pixel, the better you will be.

If you work in 2048 because it's easier for you, then by all means continue. Just don't trick yourself into thinking you're gaining any extra detail.

BTW, Oct... beautiful rivet work on the 2048, just do the same on a 1024.

[Waffle]

I understand what you're saying Dux, but theres also the fact that it's easier to "detail" something at  a larger resolution. Not just on planes, but say ground tiles too. If you start a 1024x1024 tile for landscape and you put all the details in say like farm land with plowed rows, small plants with shade ect... you get it to where it looks awesome at 1024x1024, then when you reduce it to 512 or 256 - the reduction will be much more truthful to the colors than if you had just tried to draw it in 512 or 256. Because the computer is doing the averageing and not the eye.

Even though it is taking an average of the 4 pixels I think it will still retain its flavor of the original 1024 at a smaller size better than if you were trying to draw the same thing at 512.

[Kev367th]

Agreed Waflle but ingame the original image is resampled down to the required texture size.
Therefore an already reduced 2048 to 1024 image is sampled a second time down to the needed size. Usually this just produces a lot less definition and more blurring than a single reduction.

I always preview mine at 512 as well as 1024 just to see what happens (starting with 1024 original size image).

Don't get me wrong I do use reduction for squadron codes and aircraft serial numbers as it seems to produce smoother edges than an already correctly sized anti-aliased version.

The 2 point brush at 2048 = 1 point at 1024 isn't strictly correct.
the 1 point brush at 1024 is equal to an average of the 2 point brush.

Although this may be the way forward with the new single file texture layout.

[Dux]

I agree with part of that, Waffle... organic, non-geometric details like terrain tiles will look better when sampled down. But please understand that this is merely an illusion of detail. Detail and smoothness of image are two very separate things in this case.

The point I am trying to make is mostly about 1-pixel objects: look at octavius' example up top... Some of the 1-pixel rivets on the 2048 version actually become 4-pixel rivets. This is not optimizing detail; this is creating an illusion of detail. Working 2:1 will help on large areas (like noseart), but not when you are trying to save specific single pixels.

Remember also that the game is going to add yet another resampling of all those pixels by mipmapping, etc. If you think something looks blocky on a skin, check it out in-game before deciding to work it much further.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people working 2:1. I just want to dispel the myth that it creates extra detail. It does not. In many cases I work 2:1 on a separate file for things like noseart, wheels, engine faces... but as a whole  work 1:1 because I think it's actually easier. You could try adding the rivets after you've resized the skin.

[Octavius]

Waffle I can't seem to salvage any of the 2x2 rivets at 2048.

-I select a particular rivet layer, make sure all individual rivets (2x2) are highlighted.  

-Expanding by one pixel makes the selection (around each rivet) 4x4.

-Contracting makes it 0x0.

It doesn't want to select say, one corner of each rivet... that's really what I would want to do.  One corner = 1x1 pixel rivet.

[Octavius]

Well my pen tool rivet lines look like crap when not antialiased.  But Jebus H. Macy, why didn't I do it this way before.

I'll keep the original rivet layers as a guideline to speed through them via pen tool rivets after resizing.

[Octavius]

1:1 zoom at 1024.

-Redid panel lines in 2048
-Redid rivets using the godamn pen tool which took 1/10000000th of the time manually.