Author Topic: Dual Core Chips...a good thing?  (Read 445 times)

Offline Max

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« on: April 16, 2005, 08:15:43 AM »
Both AMD and Intel are ready to release the latest in microchips...the dual core. Is this a good or not so good thing in terms of AH?

Dmdmax

Offline Skuzzy

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2005, 11:53:48 AM »
Doesn't matter to any game.  About the only thing dual core will be useful for are business applications.  Or letting Microsoft abuse the .NET framework to its fullest extents.

Just got through reading a white paper written by one of the head compiler guys at Microsoft.  Here are some highlights:

  • Dual core will be used by MS to run the .NET framework in Longhorn.  In other words, the OS will lock down one of the CPU's for its own use.
  • 64bit applications will all ride on top of .NET.  You will not have any choice if you chose to make your application 64bit.  He goes on further stating 64 bit applications will run slower than the 32 bit counterpart, in most cases.
  • The operating system will require 8GB of memory in 2 to 3 years
« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 12:01:41 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Kaz

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2005, 12:03:15 PM »
Weee time to start looking for a new OS! LOL....

Offline eagl

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2005, 04:59:14 PM »
I dunno skuzzy...

How long until HT puts the AI behavior onto the second CPU if a second physical cpu is detected?  Or if not AI, then something else that can be offloaded because it's not dependent on the game's core refresh cycle?

I think HT could find a use for a second cpu if there was a reasonable payoff, and it's only a matter of time before he HAS to use that second cpu in order to advance the game, so why wait until everyone else is doing it before falling in line?
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Offline Skuzzy

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2005, 05:38:55 PM »
Using the second CPU will not be an option when Longhorn ships, according the MS compiler person, as Longhorn will lock that second CPU for its own exclusive use.

AI cannot perform well without knowing what is going on around it.  You cannot get that information until you run through all the states, which in essence, is still single-threaded.

There are few things you can thread in a game.  The things which can happen asynchronously and do not depend on any game state information can be threaded.  Scripted actions which have no dependencies on other parts of the environment (none in AH) could be done.
Networking, which is already a thread in virtually all games, does not buy much as it is I/O dependent with very little CPU overhead.

Box games with a lot of scripted actions would probably do well multi-threading, but games which depend on people for all thier actions will not see any benefit.  Maybe more appropriately put as any benefit would be lost due to the overhead of the bus contention associated with these CPU's.
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Offline Siaf__csf

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2005, 08:06:49 AM »
I think there'll be numerous people who can't find enough reason to upgrade to longhorn.

With all those news I'm gonna avoid it like plague.

Offline Skuzzy

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2005, 01:02:39 PM »
Marketing Siaf.  

You want true 64bit support, then Longhorn is for you!  You want to be able to use dual-core CPU's with aplomb?  Then Longhorn is for you!  You want state-of-the-art multi-tasking, then Longhorn is for you!  You want more CPU overhead than ever before?  Then Longhorn is for you!

People will be all over it like flies to poop, plus MS will find a way to force the issue of upgrading.


I just wonder if they will fix the memory leak, which has existed since Windows 95, in the threading code?
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Offline soda72

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2005, 01:21:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Marketing Siaf.  

I just wonder if they will fix the memory leak, which has existed since Windows 95, in the threading code?


What threading code causes a memory leak?

Offline Skuzzy

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2005, 02:05:34 PM »
Any threading code.  Windows has had a memory leak in the threading code in the kernel since Windows 95.  It is a small leak.  Only 32 bytes each time a thread dies.
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Offline Siaf__csf

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2005, 02:09:17 PM »
Quote
You want true 64bit support, then Longhorn is for you! You want to be able to use dual-core CPU's with aplomb? Then Longhorn is for you! You want state-of-the-art multi-tasking, then Longhorn is for you! You want more CPU overhead than ever before? Then Longhorn is for you!


Why didn't you say that in the first place. I'm sold.

Where can I send my c/c info? :D

Offline soda72

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2005, 04:11:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Any threading code.  Windows has had a memory leak in the threading code in the kernel since Windows 95.  It is a small leak.  Only 32 bytes each time a thread dies.


I looked at the MSDN site for info about memory leaks and found the following.  I didn't realize this was even a problem... :(

Quote

A thread in an executable that is linked to the static C run-time library (CRT) should use _beginthread and _endthread for thread management rather than CreateThread and ExitThread. Failure to do so results in small memory leaks when the thread calls ExitThread. Another work around is to link the executable to the CRT in a DLL instead of the static CRT. Note that this memory leak only occurs from a DLL if the DLL is linked to the static CRT and a thread calls the DisableThreadLibraryCalls function. Otherwise, it is safe to call CreateThread and ExitThread from a thread in a DLL that links to the static CRT
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dllproc/base/exitthread.asp

Offline Kev367th

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2005, 01:43:12 AM »
Skuzzy - As Win 2K Pro/Server is multithreaded and you can set processes manually (Server) using processor affinity. It should make a difference?

Notes -
1) Intel are NOT dual core, they are dual chips on a single die. They communicate through the FSB (slow), whereas the AMD ones (dual core) use HT.
2) Intel paper lauched their 'dual cores' todays because AMD is lauching their true dual cores on the 21st.
3)  As far as I know there is no commercially available chipset for Intel duals yet and even Intel admits it may be June until they are ready.
4) Power usage for AMD dual cores is only 68W, hate to imagine what Intels is.
5) Of course AMD still has the advantage of having the memory controller on die.

Whels - Expect AMD desktop dual cores within 4-6 months. Including dual core FX's.

Roadmap below
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 02:04:53 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Skuzzy

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2005, 07:14:19 AM »
HT is mostly marketing hype.  No different than Intel's marketing hype about quad-pumped memory access.  HT and FSB are both full duplex.
If you use AMD's math, then Intel's FSB is currently 1.6Ghz.  In serial (HT) versus parallel (FSB), there are advantages and disadvantges to each design.  The current implementation of the HT bus has drawbacks.  These will become clear when 64bit native applications ship.  As per MS, they have already said most 64bit applications are going to run slower than the 32bit counterpart.  It is not hard to see why.

AMD had no choice but to move the memory controller on die as no one could build an external memory controller worth a damn for thier CPU's.

Architectural differences between CPU designs dictate the best approach to handling memory access.  The current serial memory bus (HT) has definate drawbacks.  Until a serial bus has the flexibility to access datum types based on size, performance will always remain inconsistent.   The easiest way to handle this would be the use of multiple serial channels which scale based on data being accessed.   Or get the serial bus running at 12.8Ghz so that 64bit data accesses will not impede performance.  Or, get multi-sample per clock implemented.
Of course, the memory bus itself (HT or FSB) is still the gating factor in performance.  I see many AMD people talk about how speeding up the memory bus does not make a lot of difference with an AMD CPU.
Well, that is just wrong, as the speed of memory access will dictate the actual performance of a system.  The only time this would not be true would occur when all the information needed to run the computer resides in the CPU cache.  Not going to happen.

Addressing the dual core issue.  The biggest single performance hit in a multi-CPU environment is bus contention.  It is expensive.  This happens whenever multiple CPU's need access to anything outside of thier own silicone.
Many (read most) operations in an operating system occur in a very synchronous manner as the operating system is simply acting on behalf of the application.
An application reading data will have zero gains in performance on a multi-CPU system and could actually degrade in peformance due to bus contention depending on the efficiency of the locking mechanism in the operating system and hardware.  Even the most efficient mechanisms penalize the overall system performance.
If two applications need access to the same data, then it would be best handled by one CPU, not two.  The memory contention and cache miss would hurt performance in this instance as well.
A multi-CPU system is most efficient when running, at least, two desparate applications which require no data between them and make little use of external shared libraries.  That is a best case scenario for a mutli-CPU system.

In your scenario Kev, I do not see a gain in performance.  The bus contention would probably negate any cache hit gains.  Most of the time the operating system is just handling I/O and is bound by the performance of those devices.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2005, 07:18:12 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline whels

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2005, 12:21:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Skuzzy - As Win 2K Pro/Server is multithreaded and you can set processes manually (Server) using processor affinity. It should make a difference?

Notes -
1) Intel are NOT dual core, they are dual chips on a single die. They communicate through the FSB (slow), whereas the AMD ones (dual core) use HT.
2) Intel paper lauched their 'dual cores' todays because AMD is lauching their true dual cores on the 21st.
3)  As far as I know there is no commercially available chipset for Intel duals yet and even Intel admits it may be June until they are ready.
4) Power usage for AMD dual cores is only 68W, hate to imagine what Intels is.
5) Of course AMD still has the advantage of having the memory controller on die.

Whels - Expect AMD desktop dual cores within 4-6 months. Including dual core FX's.

Roadmap below
 


Kev,

http://overclockers.com/tips00763/

xcert:
During the conference call, the AMD execs said everything was going fine, but provided a clue by what they mean by "fine."

"Fine" apparently means, "We'll be able to get some processors out by the end of the first half, 2006." Extrapolating from that, considerable production probably won't come until towards the end of 2006, and crossover into major production won't probably happen until 2007.

Offline Kev367th

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Dual Core Chips...a good thing?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2005, 03:36:19 PM »
Lol Whels I guess it just depends which thing you read where.

21st this month Opteron duallies launch, stuff I've read says June for desktop.
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