Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Bomber Command was a seperate entity from Fighter Command.  RAF bombers had been to Germany prior to the B of B.  It's not like those bombing raids started as a result of the B of B.  That they hit Berlin after the LW hit London was only part of their ongoing operations.

What does the organisation of the RAF have to do with it? Are you saying if the Germans had separated its bomber force into a "Kampfwaffe" their losses wouldn't count? Clearly this is a fallacy.

Originally posted by Guppy35
But you know, like all these threads there is clearly no point in carrying on as no one is listening anyway right?

Right.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Interesting, as the RAF admitted 900-odd of it`s fighters lost in combat, the total wastage being 1960 fighters during the BoB.

That would mean the LW completely destroyed the 11 Group 5 times during the battle.

Well Barbarrosa  Isegrim if you want to play with numbers those 384 a/c of 11 Group destroyed 5 times their number. If you use your ratio (including non-opertiaonal losses), it is a 1:1 ratio. Not bad, eh? But tell me, how does the LW claim a/c that were 'lost' on non-operational flights?


Scholz,

Now you can take all operations for this time period if you want, and is legit, but as Dan said, BoB was from July 1-October 31 and BoB was area specific (over southern England and a couple of 'raids' in the north). The losses of RAF BC in raids into France would be part of BoB but not those missions to Germany.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Angus

Anyway, Milo, your LW  numbers are much higher than the ones I have!
(From memory)

Angus,

you can get the LW OoB from http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LW_OBs.html It also includes the bases the a/c flew from as well as the a/c type.

[Angus]

TY Milo.
A most interesting website.
As for BoB, I think the specification is generally "LW versus fighter command" an offensive of the behalf of the LW to subdue fighter command, making British airspace completely safe for LW bombers and transport. The Phases were basically 4, first attacks on shipping in the strait, then attacks on radar sites, then attacks of British airfields among with other targets, and then it switched on to the Blitz.
Hitler's command was this:
"The English air force must be eliminated to such an extent that it will be uncapable of putting up any substancial opposition to the invading troops"
A rather clear objective, and if you read Deighton you will realize that the LW was actually rather good in the planning and altered its plans many times over the battle.

So, wins and losses relate to this.
Here are the numbers I have.
LW Losses:
To RAF fighters 1197
without credit 37
AA  100
unknown 102
Failiures 57
take off 28
collisions 22
lost bearings 8
out of fuel 11
weather 6
ballon cables 3
own AA 3
searchlight 1
total 1.609


Shot down by Spitfires 529
there off 109's 282
Shot by Hurricanes 656
there off 109's 222
110's killed by Hurrys 128
by Spits 80

Source: Aeroplane, - John Alcorn
Period July 1. to October 31

And it looks like a good job BTW

[Angus]

A little to add on.
The RAF losses are listed SQN by SQN. They total 830.
So, Deighton should rather stick with cooking