Author Topic: Nothing new under the sun..... (Read 181 times)

StarOfAfrica2 · « **on:** June 16, 2005, 04:16:27 AM »

Reading recently on the Revolutionary war, I was struck by this article from the New England Chronicle, from December 1775. It could well stand in for a speech on Iraq with minor alterations, as our current day army faces some of the same issues as Washington did way back then in 1775.

Quote

Your exertions in the cause of fredom, guided by wisdom and animated by zeal and courage, have gained you the love and confidence of your grateful countrymen; and they look to you, who are experienced veterans, and trust that you will still be the guardians of America. As I have the honor to be an American, and one among the free millions, who are defended by your valor, I would pay the tribute of thanks, and express my gratitude, while I solicit you to continue in your present honorable and important station. I doubt not America will always find enough of her sons ready to flock to her standard, and suport her freedom; but experience proves that experienced soldiers are more capable of performing the duties of the camp, and better quilified to face the enemy, than others; and therefore every friend of America will be desirous that most of the gentlemen who comprise the present army may continue in the service of their country until "Liberty, Peace, and Safety" are established. Although your private concerns may call for your assistance at home, yet the voice of your country is still louder, and itis ipainful to heroic minds to quit the field when liberty calls, and the voice of injured millions cries "To arms! to arms!" Never was a cause more important or glorious than that which you are engaged in; not only your wives, your children, and distant posterity, but humanity at large, the world of mankind, are interested in it; for if tyranny should prevail in this great country, we may expect liberty will expire throughout the world. Therfore, more human glory and happiness may depend upon your exertions than ever yet depended upon any of the sons of men. He thatis a soldier in defense of such a cause, needs no title; his post is a post of honor, and although not an emporor, yet he shall wear a crown - of glory - and blessed will be his memory!

The savage and brutal barbarity of our enemies in burning Falmouth, is a full demonstration that there is not the least remains of virtue, wisdom, or humanity, in the British court; and that they are fully determined with fire and sword, to butcher and destroy, beggar and enslave the whole of the American people. Therefore we expect soon to break off all kind of connection with Britain, and form into a Grand Republic of the American United Colonies, which will, by the blessing of ehaven, soon work out our salvation, and perpetuate teh liberties, increase the wealth, the power and the glory of this Western world.

Notwithstanding the many difficulties we have to encouter, and the rage of our merciless enemies, we have a glorious prospect before us, big with everything good and great. The further we enter into the field of independence, our prospects will expand and brighten, and a complete Republic will soon comlete our happiness.

Not that the situations are similar, not really. I could pick out some examples if I wasnt so tired right now. I'lll let yall think on it, time for bed for me.

lazs2 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2005, 08:06:16 AM »

I don't see any similarities at all except that both are wars.

lazs

Schaden · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2005, 08:24:27 AM »

Plse note when fighting insurgents on their home ground the super power of the age, be it British 300 years ago or American in the 4th quarter of 20th century or in the 1st quarter of the 21st century invariably gets their collective arses kicked.

You can't "win" this type of war, the best you can do is negotiate a peace, remove yourself from the conflict, put up some memorials to the dead and proclaim a great victory.

The politicians and the generals may spout the line that everythings fine but the all you have to do is look at the enlistment figures to see what the grunts feel about the glorious little war they find themselves in.

lazs2 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2005, 08:31:02 AM »

so you are saying that we are trying to make iraq a U.S colony and that the majority of the people there are trying to brreak away and form... form what? We are allowing the majority to decide what they want.

They are allowed to vote. If they vote in someone who asks us to leave... we will.

we are only fighting other outside forces not the people of iraq... the forces we are fighting are killing the citizens of iraq more than they are killing us.

lazs

Schaden · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2005, 08:49:22 AM »

Counter insurgency warfare within a civilian population works on many levels - whilst your hard core fighters may be very small - the IRA for instance never had more than 300 members "on active service" they would rely on support, either direct indirect in the form of food, weapons, shelter communications and intelligence from the local population.

They would be able to rely on not being informed upon to the security forces - the security forces in turn are not able to obtain information in sufficient quantities and of sufficient quality to remove threats.

For example - EOD ambush is set up at a roadside - the locals all know about it - they walk on the road every day, it's probably marked so they can avoid it - do they tell the security forces - nope they stay out of the fight not directly choosing sides but favouring the insurgents.

You need very few hard core fighters to tie down an army - as Mao said they use the population as a fish uses the sea - the population gives them everything they need.

In the last 150 years the ONLY case where insurgents were defeated was in Malaysia - and that was probably due mostly to the fact that the insurgents were Chinese imports and not locals.

America might think it will win this war but history is against you - start putting together a tasteful memorial, big enough for about 10,000 names and sweep the 75,000 odd maimed and wounded under the carpet - declare a wonderful victory - go home.

lazs2 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2005, 09:02:27 AM »

what?? you are saying because you couldn't do well against the IRA that all is hopeless?

Lots of places were pacified when allmost half the population was against the outside forces... Hatti, philipines, korea.. even vietman was completely won till we abandoned the winning forces.. What is going on in afghanistan? Is the IRA running ireland?

and... what do any of those places have to do with the American revolution?

lazs

Schaden · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2005, 09:25:15 AM »

Vietnam obviously was a magnificent victory.......care explain why the USA felt it had to "abandon the winning forces"?

Afghanistan...interesting country, kicked Britains arse 3 times in the 1800's, kicked out the Russians, I believe the poppy crop is having a bumper year and outside the capital it's run by the local warlords - so no change there for the last 300 years, they've been invaded since the time of Alexander - they're always endured longer than the invaders - your lot won't be any different.

Who runs Haiti and the Phillipines - the "outside forces" or the locals? You may find some graves but thats all that remains of the invaders - gone to dust every one.

In the American Revolution you were the occupied, now you are the occupiers - course you had the French to assist you but that's another topic.

Finally plse note - I'm not British - so the "You couldn't do well" is fairly inaccurate - Americans always seem to take everything as a personal affront - it's not and not meant to be - merely a discussion.

I'm actually South African - my great great grandfather - with the help of God and the Mauser, as they proclaimed at the time - was one of those who taught the British "no end of a lesson" according to Kipling 1899 - 1902.

Again superpower fighting locals - Britain in that particular case had realised the way to handle these things had signed peace - given the locals what they wanted and had them fighting for Britain 12 years later - course it took them 200 years of Empire building to learn how to do this so you lot have a way to go yet...

But one has to ask - do you feel the Iraq war is going well - do you think the cost in money and lives has been worth it? Are you any safer now than you were two years ago or was it all a sham by those in power with a hidden agenda? For surely we now must agree that there were no WMD's and Saddm posed no threat to the West in any shape or form?