US apologizes: 24 are OTW home

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
Pilot's choice 1: Land plane in China = Good chance crew survive unhurt, but plane and crew will be captured.

 Pilot's choice 2: Ditch plane in sea: Good chance crew will be injured or killed, but crew(and plane wreck) will probably be recovered by Chinese.

 No choice at all, especially for a soldier on intelligence mission with secret equipment in his care. Military are supposed to defend their country and its secrets, not embarrass  it. It sounds risky but that is what it is - military service.
 They should have turned towards the deepest area of teh sea, preferably in the direction of the friendly forces and tried to demolish/throw out as much equipment as possible before bailing out or ditching or both.

 miko

[mietla]

Agree with miko. The safety of the crew can never take precedence over the mission objectives.

Someone should be court marshalled for this fiasco. Either the crew for not following procedure and crashing the plane, of if the procedure allowed landing on the enemy territory, the SOB who came up with this procedure should be hanged.

This is ridiculous, if we ever are in conflict, all the enemy has to do is to kidnap a couple of our guys. We'll surrender to get them back?

The chinese won big time, they've humiliated us, exposed our utter incompetence, and on top of that they kept the plane.

All we got is the crew.

[mietla]

Is there anything in our arsenal which we did not give (free of charge) to the chinese yet  

First Clinton now Bush. This is frikkin' treason.

[funked]

I'm a bit confused and irked by people talking about what "they" should have done.

First of all let's talk about "he" instead of "they".  The pilot would make the decision to land or ditch, possibly aided by his commander if he was in radio contact with his base.  The crew of the plane would have nothing to do with it.  There is no "they".  "They" are passengers.

Also, don't you think HE would have some clear standing orders on how to handle that situation, if a choice between preservation of life and preservation of security had to be made?  I have heard comments on this board and AGW from people who have piloted and flown aboard this kind of aircraft, and they have indicated that keeping people alive would be the first priority.

Remember that landing an airplane in the ocean is not like video games.  The airplane is likely to be damaged in the landing, and it will sink like a stone, giving the crew little time to escape.  Even if they get out, they still have to survive in the water, and be located and rescued, and neither of those things are certain.

So it seems perverse when I see people in the media and in here talking about how "they" should have made a decision to ditch and give up their lives to save some fancy radios, when the decision was most likely likely predetermined by USN policy and made by one person, and we're sitting here at home in our comfy computer chairs.

[mietla]

The crew should follow the contingency plan (I do not know whether they did), and the contingency plan should make sure that the plane does not land. Especially on the enemy territory.

Should not be difficult to bail on parachutes and let the plane crash. The we could either recover it, or leave it on a bottom. The price of the hardware is irrelevant, the main objective is deny an access to it to the enemy.

Either this type of plane is not really that valuable and we don't care whether the chinese get it, or we defend it at all cost.

[mietla]

BTW, I'm trying to say that we should kill the crew. What has happend was completely predictable and it seems to me that we could easily save the crew and whack the plane.

Was the plane forced to land in china by the remaining chi-com or did pilot do it at his discretion (with or without approval from the command)?



[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 04-12-2001).]

[Toad]

Funked, it IS the aircraft commander's decision in the end.

However, there used to be ... and I'm sure there still is ...  a "Tactical Doctrine" book that tries to give guidance for exactly such circumstances.

For obvious reasons, Tac Doctrine is classified. I doubt we'll ever hear what the current TD says to do in such a situation.

All that being said, in the "old days" it would have been a ditch, possibility of loss of life notwithstanding according to TD.

Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.

Understand, I'm not second guessing anyone here. I'm just saying I'm SURE there was printed policy guidance somewhere.

[Maverick]

I sincerly hope future recon flights in the area of china will be escorted. Perhaps the interceptors won't feel to interested in getting real close if there is an F14 right behind them.

Mav

[TheWobble]

 

I sincerly hope future recon flights in the area of china will be escorted. Perhaps the interceptors won't feel to interested in getting real close if there is an F14 right behind them

Better yet, randomley send a few F-22s with a  recon plane now and then..have them fly pretty close to the P-3 (Not Wang close) so that they dont show on radar (if they would anyway) and then when the hotshots show up they will be greeted by a few raptors.. and after a while they Chi-coms wont know if when they head out to harass a plane who will be doing harassing...would be funny to see some booger jacking with the P-3 and the chi-com pilot sees the P-3 pilot point and make the gesture "behind you" and mr raptor is sitting there on his 6 with a big cheesy grin.

[funked]

Toad, thanks for the info.

Mietla, I guess it depends on what the TD was as Toad describes.  If the pilot violated orders or doctrine then I'm sure he'll face some consequences.  But I don't think we should be so sure that the TD was to risk 24 people to keep the Chinese from seeing some fancy radios.

[-ammo-]

 

Originally posted by 1776:
Chi-coms=chinese communists.  Not all chinese are communists!!!!  

If your not a communists and are Chinese, "better to keep mouth shut" confucious say

[mietla]

Funked,
Well, it depends on how "fancy" the radios were. Watching the entire bruhaha, one can get an impression that they were top secret (plus on the data gathered using them).

You are right, there is no need to jeopartize the lives of the crew for and old airframe, but I can easily imagine this plane full of extremely sensitive electronics and data, in which case it should be defended at all cost.

I'll shut up now, because I do not have enough knowledge on this topic, but it makes me extremely nervous and mad to see our government and the military allowing the enemy an access to the most sensitive stuff we have. The Wan Ho Lee, Loral and the hard drive affairs look to me like much more than an incompetence. I can see something much more organized and sinister behind them.

Can you say treason?

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by mietla:
Funked,
Well, it depends on how "fancy" the radios were. Watching the entire bruhaha, one can get an impression that they were top secret (plus on the data gathered using them).

You are right, there is no need to jeopartize the lives of the crew for and old airframe, but I can easily imagine this plane full of extremely sensitive electronics and data, in which case it should be defended at all cost.

I'll shut up now, because I do not have enough knowledge on this topic, but it makes me extremely nervous and mad to see our government and the military allowing the enemy an access to the most sensitive stuff we have. The Wan Ho Lee, Loral and the hard drive affairs look to me like much more than an incompetence. I can see something much more organized and sinister behind them.

Can you say treason?

Mietla,

I don't think the EP3 has the latest gadgets in it. (could be wrong) I am sure it had some interesting gear in the plane but the chicoms probably have some of the data on file from their covert operations (spy purchases). I imagine the vrew had time enough to do enough to keep functional equipment out of the hands of the chi-coms. Of course if they had followed international law (as pointed out in Toad's posts) on the situation there would have been no entry into the aircraft by the chinese.

Mav