If you're American, then chances are ...

[leonid]

... you need to read this link.

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 08-14-2000).]

[Downtown]

Leo, I read that before.

It came down to cold war fears and propoganda.  One of the Reasons that the U.S. was so eager to believe the Germans was because the Germans hated the Russians (Soviets) more than the U.S. did.  WHile Americans were advancing through Germany, German Soldiers were surrendering to the U.S. Forces and asking them to help expell the Russians (Soviets) from their country.  According to many interviews I have read, many Germans believed the U.S. Would do this.

I remember reading interviews with people who went to that conference (Both U.S. and Soviet) and the opinion was that the Cold War affected the direction the Paper took.  The Russians had a Soviet Version where they were heros and the U.S. had a U.S. version where we were heros.  I remember reading that a U.S. Historian and a Russian Historian made honest attempts to bring about well documented and supported conclusions and the Soviets kicked their guy out first, the U.S. Guy was soon to follow cause they weren't taking sides.

As I posted before somewhere it was like 11 Russians and six Germans for every American G.I. Killed in Combat.

The LW In Europe only operated over Germany (Against the Strategic Bombers and against the Soviet Forces on the Eastern Front.)  THe LW Was removed from the Skies over France more effecively by the Russians than by the USAAC and RAF Combined.

I think that the U.S. is getting a better apreciation of what Russia did, I think that the thawing of the relations has made great strides in that department.

The U.S. did regardless make a contribution in industry that IMHO far surpassed any nation on earth so embroiled in the conflict.  To what extent that industry was allowed to continue unhindered by the war could be a point of contention.  If Germany was bombing U.S. Industrial Centers would we have been able to match the output of the U.S.S.R I do not know.

The basic statement or generalization could be made that the Russians kept the attention of 2/3rds of the German Military while the U.S. Armed 2/3rds of the Forces who would contest the Germans.

The Argument/Discussion isn't that simple, I know that, but as a "Bathroom Historian" who likes to see both sides of the coin before making a determination for myself, I believe it is a fair statement.

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[leonid]

I hear ya, downtown, and I won't quibble over figures with you, because at the heart of it what you say is true for both the USA, and what was once known as the USSR.

[Nath-BDP]

 

The LW In Europe only operated over Germany (Against the Strategic Bombers and against the Soviet Forces on the Eastern Front.) THe LW Was removed from the Skies over France more effecively by the Russians than by the USAAC and RAF Combined.

 

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Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"



Aces High Scenario Corps

[AKDejaVu]

Dammit Nash! Keep facts out of it.  We are dealing with Nationalism here!   Er.. continentalism?

AKDejaVu

[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-15-2000).]

[funked]

Nath, where'd you get that chart, from a cereal box?  "Nazi Flakes".  

[Nath-BDP]

Nope...

Luftwaffe Aircraft in Profile...

caption under the table reads,

Comment:
The most commonly quoted source on this matter is Ernst Obermaier's Die Ritterkreuztriiger
der Luftwaffe, Band 1 Jagdflieger 1939-1945. According to Obermaier, the German
fighter pilots claimed a total of 70,000 aerial victories during World War 11- 25,000 against
the "West" and 45,000 on the Eastern Front. At the same time, the German Flak (AAA
batteries) reported the shooting down of more than 20,000 enemy aircraft.
According to the same source, 16,400 German day fighter aircraft were lost (total
loss, i.e. aircraft with more than 60% damage) as the result of hostile action during the war
years. 8,500 German day fighter pilots were killed, 2, 700 went missing or were taken
prisoners and 9, lOO were injured.


Different total loss figures for the RAF and USAAF are published frequently. Less
known are the loss statistics for the Soviet Air Force. The so far most reliable figures are
given in the book Red Stars, recently published in Finland. According to this, the combat
losses of the Soviet Air Force in the Second World War amounted to 46, lOO aircraft. Over
18,400 Soviet officer pilots were killed in action and another 20,600 went missing in
action or were taken prisoners.
Previously, the German author HeinzAF Schmidt (in Sowjetische Flugzeuge) put the
total number of individual combat missions undertaken by the Soviet Air Force between
June 22, 1941 and YE Day 1945 at 3,223,000, thus giving the total loss rate 1.4% for the
whole war, compared with the loss figures given in Red Star,\,. (As a comparison, the total
loss rate for the RAP Bomber Command between July 1940 and YE Day 1945, was 2.9% )
Not included in the table above are the results of the German night fighters, who
claimed to have downed a total of 5,729 Western Allied aircraft, the true figure probably
being around 5,000.
This leads to the conclusion that on average, eight Western Allied aircraft were shot
down for every ten aerial victories claimed by German day fighter pilots, while the ratio
on the Eastern Front was probably a bit smaller, due to the fact that the major part of the air
combats in this war theater took part over Soviet held territory.




------------------
Geschwaderkommodore JG 54
"Grünherz"



Aces High Scenario Corps

[funked]

Thanks.  Actually the stats seemed reasonable to me anyways.  I was just being an a-hole.  

[leonid]

Nath,
Though many Soviet citizens were bitter about the delayed opening of the 'second front'(beginning of the western allies' attack on European soil), they were very aware of the USAAF/RAF bombing campaign.  They knew the type of losses that the bombers were taking in 1943, and realized that because of the bombers a large portion of the jagdfliegeren left the Soviet Union to defend Germany, thereby easing the burden on the VVS, and the Red Army in general.

In Werth's book 'War in Russa' he recounts how sincere was the appreciation by the Soviets, citizen and soldier alike, for the USAAF/RAF bombers, because they were the first to give the USSR some real relief from the enemy.

------------------
leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 08-15-2000).]

[Downtown]

I see what I did wrong, but I'll be damned if I know how to fix it.  I know that Basically Hitler had Goering pull almost every Luftwaffe Fighter and Bomber back over Germany to interdict the Allied Bombing Campaign.   Hitler hated the bombers over Germany and that is why the Effort was made against them.  Then with the nature of Combat over the Eastern Front the rest of the Luftwaffe was there.

So bassically until D-Day there was not much reason for the LW to be over France.  I know that the Majority of Bombing Raids over London Stopped (The Germans Had the V-1 going and were satisfied with what it was doing.)

I was thinking Offensively here, I guess that my statement should have been.

LW In Europe primarily operated over Germany (Against the Strategic Bombers) and on the Eastern Front.  The LW Was removed from the sky over France more effectively by the Strategic Bombers and Soviet Air Force than by the American and RAF Fighters combined.

Ergo my intent was to say that fighters and offensive operations over France didn't push the LW out of there.

------------------

"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Nath-BDP]

The VVS didn't operation on the Western Front... if you look at that chart it shows that the RAF and US destroyed 3x as many Luftwaffe aircraft as the USSR.

[jmccaul]

In The first and the last Galland said he was desperate to save fighter for the defense of the reich but hitler insisted on sending fighters to the (western front) where many were lost on route due to inexperience of pilots and the fact many of the target airfields were bombed out of service or got steam rollered by the allied advance.

P.S. this was mid-late 44 i believe later a reserve was built up in germany but instead of used as defense to hit the bombers hard was instead used on a mass jabo raid.  

[Gh0stFT]

 http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2-loss.htm

the losses in ww2 where unbelievably high
especialy at the Eastern Front for both sides.

[Downtown]

Nath, yes they did.

They destroyed the planes interdicting the bombers.

There wasn't much Luftwaffe Presence in France even though they had the planes.  THe Germans Chose to use what Airforce they had to;

1. Interdict the Strategic Bombers of the U.S. and England.

2. Use what offensive capability they had against the Russians.

I attempted the Correction, my intent always was to say that the Luftwaffe suffered from the bombing raids and the russian front.  The comment about 'more effectively than the U.S.A.A.C. or RAF" should have been "more effectively than by the fighters of the U.S.A.A.C. or the RAF."

------------------

"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!