Fighting at altitude

[Simaril]

Its different up there...and I'm not taking advantage of the differences, I guess.

There was a stream of higher alt enemies dropping on a furball between 2 bases, so I upped a P-47D-25 to try and bounce a few -- and maybe just drive the monkeys a little lower for my friends. At about 18K, and beyond the primary fight zone, I spotted a couple co-alt enemies -- but they spotted me and decided to engage. When they closed enough, they turned out to be (cue Gomer Pyle voice: "Surprise, surprise!") an La-7 and a Spit XVI.

I decided to use my advantage (performance at alt) and try to do a slow rope. I didnt have enough speed to do an immelman merge, so I winged over and trusted they would follow. I wasnt sure about 18K level speed advantage over the XVI, but I was  confident I could outclimb it; I pretty much discounted the La as meat on the table this high up. Lastly, from an SA standpoint, I was all on my own (as were these 2) and I was pointed away from friendlies.

I went into a gradual climb, hoping to see the distances increase so I could steepen sharply, rudder over, and reverse. Trouble was, I also tried to gently circle so I'd be heading toward friendlies -- and looking back, i think that let them cut inside me to make up the difference. Couple times I got  too steep and let them close into near firing range, but I'd level or dive slightly to extend and did fine.

These two pesky boogers stayed with me up to 25K, and I never felt I had advantage enough to do anything but keep them at bay. Once I got pointed right, I straightened out and got down to business -- but the XVI thot better of it and dove out. The La jsut woudlnt give up, and even sprayed some at me. Frustratingly, the flatter ballistics up there let the LA actually hit me from 600 during one upward pull -- and took an airelon.

A couple times the La dropped alt, but by the time I started to turn in he was right on me again. I'm sure my frustration at not seeing him flutter into a stall climbing at 26k kept me from thinking well, but I wasnt coming up with any ideas - so as i crossed the patch of friendlies I called out a drag, dropped down some,  and levelled off.

He took my elevator from 600-800.

At this point I was annoyed and ready to go home, so dropped into conservative dive and pulled him well into the friendlies. Before the drag came to full effect, he dove out for home.

I landed with my teeth gritted. It wasnt supposed to work like that!

SO how could I have better taken advantage of their performance disadvantage?

[The Fugitive]

First, I'm no pro or anything, but here are my thoughts.... take them or leave them....

To me it sounds like this was a long and drawn out fight, covering a number of sectors. Even tho you are "suppose" to have the advantage at that alt... remember this is a game and its not "perfect"... it sounds to me that you never used what little advantage you ever had. Both the spit and La climb well, and tho they are "not as good as the P47" at that alt they do fly up there. You never pressed the attack. Pressing the attack would have forced the enemy to maneuver and burn "E". This is where your advantage was. Your plane would maneuver up there where the LA would'nt have, the spit on the other hand..... well I think that "ubber bird" should be perked ... had you forced the attack then I think you would have seen " seeing him flutter into a stall climbing at 26k".

I would have used climbing spirals to ghet above them and make a pass at them. You don't have to get your guns on them each time. Roll in on a merge and break right at 1k and climb back into a left hand spiral. Next pass, break left at 1k and start the spiral to the right, next pass make a guns run. Mix it up. After the pass extend a bit, but not much... 5 seconds or so, then in again so they don't have a lot of time to recover the "E" they loose. If you stay smooth in the passes and turns you... knowing what you plan... will hold more "E". After a couple of passes the LA would be floppin around... unless its SHANE    then all you would have is the spit.

Of course thats my style, I like to be aggresive. I play this game for the fight. Sure the kills important, and even landing the kill or kills is cool, but if its a good fight, it don't matter weather I win or lose.

[Schutt]

How much fuel did you have on board?
You have it filmed?
You used your flaps?

I found outclimbing or roping at that altitude pretty hard, easier to fight them and try to get a guns solution, its verry hard to get a usable alt advantage up at that altitudes since you need a lot of speed to maneuver and when you blow the speed climbing you can no longer maneuver much.

In anything but a shallow turn you loose a lot of altitude so the turn and burn stuff doesnt work that great. I think best is to make them commit to a fight so they have to turn tight and you can go in bigger turns, that way they loose altitude and sometimes eaven stall. So its more about speed than about having more altitude.

[bozon]

Being "good at alt" doesn't mean the P47 will obliterate any opposition. La7 doesn't magically turn into a dog once crossing 20k (though I'm not sure the real plane even had oxygen supply).

The mere fact that the La7 and spit weren't instantly all over you like droppings is already a vast improvement. High alt fighting is E fighting. Any attempt to pull G will burn a lot more speed than down low, to a point that planes may not even be able to hold their alt. I remember a squad-ops event where we fought Ki61 with P38s at 25k. They Ki's were litteraly falling out of the skies.

La7 and spits will have a very aggressive mind set when they fight you. They WILL try to turn hard inside you and find out they can't sustain it like they do at sea level. Your Jug on the other hand preforms almost exactly as it does at sea level if you relate to IAS. You still have the same power, which wasn't much down low but is relatively very good up here.

The difference comes down to the difference between IAS ans TAS speeds. Turning depends on IAS - max IAS is nearly constant at all alts and starts to drop above critical alt till you can't sustain above stall speed. TAS on the other hand improves with alt and becomes much higher than IAS. TAS - true air speed is what ballistics depend on, so while turninng gets worse, zoom becomes better. So "turning style" becomes less effective than "E style".

The Jug is a great E fighter up high and your greatest weapon is suprise, but you still need to do "that pilot $#it" to use it.

Bozon

[Simaril]

Originally posted by The Fugitive
...snip...

I would have used climbing spirals to ghet above them and make a pass at them. You don't have to get your guns on them each time. Roll in on a merge and break right at 1k and climb back into a left hand spiral. Next pass, break left at 1k and start the spiral to the right, next pass make a guns run. Mix it up. After the pass extend a bit, but not much... 5 seconds or so, then in again so they don't have a lot of time to recover the "E" they loose. If you stay smooth in the passes and turns you... knowing what you plan... will hold more "E". After a couple of passes the LA would be floppin around... unless its SHANE    then all you would have is the spit.

Of course thats my style, I like to be aggresive. I play this game for the fight. Sure the kills important, and even landing the kill or kills is cool, but if its a good fight, it don't matter weather I win or lose.

I need to be more aggressive -- I think the killer instinct is my main deficiency. You hit the nail on the head.

About the merge: are you saying that with nose to nose merge with lateral separation, you'd start a R lead turn but break into a L spiral climb? I'm having trouble visualizing the move.

[The Fugitive]

Ya, I'd break to the right to gain a bit more lateral seperation, then turn back in to the left closing the angle as I started my spiral. What I'm trying to do is to get the enemy to ease off on his merge turn as it will look like I'm turning away, then as I start the spiral turn back into him he's got to pull some good "G's" if he's the typical La/Spit dweeb and is after the kill in the first pass. Just that second of them easing off the stick will get them to burn more "E" a tad quicker..... or so I hope  

The trick is to force them to burn "E" quicker and any maneuver that you can use to force them out of plane forces them to burn more "E" to get back on ya.

[Iceman24]

yeah Sim, I would only say that you probably needed to be more aggresive and bring those 8 .50 cals around more, the spit XVI might actually have an advantage when it comes to climbing at that alt, and like someone above mentioned it, the LA doesn't exactly turn into a dog above 20k, its still a speedster, I fly the 47-25 quite a bit and I would be willing to bet if you slowed that bad boy down a little and dropped your flaps you could out turn / roll both the LA and the spit 16 at that alt, I've gotten into deck fights with spitty's in the D25 and won 3 vs 1's, it is quickly becoming my new favorite plane, it is a total beast once you get it down... still no P38 but its good... I've learned those jugs can be deadly when flown correctly using good E management and flaps, but I was very very surprised once I slowed it down and dropped flaps as to how nimble it is. The only reason I started flying them a month or two ago was because of people like yourself, and Yucca. I was in my 38 about 2 months ago and had a great fight with Yucca and was really amazed as to how well he handled it, so I upped one and started playing with it... there total E beasts

[Big G]

Hey Simiral

I use a 109 K4 usually from 0-30k so all I can do is give you some advice from a K4 perspective:

Alt is E and E is king, you got E then the ball is in your court, As soon as I had seen them I would have extended from them and then grabbed some more. One I had done this then I would have changed my Alt into E and rolled all over them, grabbin once my E state had gone down a bit.

I would have extended and grabed some, even if it meant losing contact with them.
Like I said, that's from a K4 perspective.

[TequilaChaser]

Fugitive & Bozon nailed it,

Any attempt to pull G will burn a lot more speed than down low, to a point that planes may not even be able to hold their alt.

If you stay smooth in the passes and turns you... knowing what you plan... will hold more "E". After a couple of passes the LA would be floppin around

you had the right idea in wanting to make low G turns, as you pointed out, Sim.

but as you also mentioned and others, you was not very aggressive at the same time. My thinking is if the fight had went on any longer for the spit 16 or the La7 you might have gotten alt least one of them , both were prob on fumes or had just enough to make it home....

I think you got most the answers you needed from the others.  Just remember sometimes less is actually more, in the pulling of G's to conserve/maintain your Energy the higher up in altitude you go.  As for Energy or E-Fighting it is a combination of both styles ( Angles fighting/turn fighting  & Boom & Zoom ) with some good flavor added in to boot! the difference is being the agressor and suckering your opponent to burn his why maintaining or gaining on yours and spending it when you have the right opportunity .....I am sure you already know this.  You should always try to get both of your opponents turning together as well when in a 2 on 1 fight. Least I do, so I am being attacked by them at the same time as opposed to being slapped from both ends of my merging /extending . If they are winging correctly they will do this and burn your Energy, if you work them to be in the same plane of flight  and engaging/making passes on you together at same time, you can control your energy & the fight much easier.

Be agressive, but know when to be agressive, you mentioned it when you said you did not notice the La7 stall at 26K and it flustered you, how well was he closing on you? ws his counter staying same? was the plane shape growing or getting smaller? even if the counter read the same? this can tell you when to go vertical and hang the prop/float and bait him, that was your chance possibly,.......just my thoughts taken from your description..... A film shortened up to just the intial engagement til the end would be nice for review.

and yes the D25 Jug is a fun flight.........

and keep the mindset of "you haven't lost the fight until you are sitting back in the tower, even if you are missing an aileron and an elevator, doesn't mean you still can't beat your opponent!!!"