Author Topic: I wonder with all this IL2 stuff..... What...  (Read 912 times)

Offline Skuzzy

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I wonder with all this IL2 stuff..... What...
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2001, 12:36:00 PM »
DZ, I was not knocking the game at all and yes, I have played it.  It is quite nice.  The graphics are superb, and I can see some of the tradeoffs made, but they wre good tradeoffs most people would not notice.

T&L, by the way, can hurt performance or help it.  When you use T&L, you make the assumption the GPU can do it faster than the local CPU.  In some cases, this is true, in others it is not.

OpenGL vs DX is a no biggie.  Just another API.  Either can be coded to outperform the other.

Net connects are another story.  The more objects you have to deal with the more data must be sent/received to/from the server.  For instance, when you damage an object, you must send that information to the server (depending on whether or not the damage modeling is server or client side), then the server must notify all clients in visual range of that damaged object of the damage.
The amount of data to deal with a real time 3D sim/game can get quite high, very quickly.
This directly translates into more CPU overhead.
These are simple unavoidable facts.  Note, I am not saying anything about whether it can be done or not.  I am just saying there is a lot of data involved with online play.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline DeeZCamp

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I wonder with all this IL2 stuff..... What...
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2001, 01:08:00 PM »
I agree with ya Skuzzy for the most part  :D

I have heard however that 3-5k is about the max that is going to be needed for massive multiplayer trasmitted data.


3-5k frankly aint nothing in todays world of cable/dsl modems  ;)

About the Gpu thing though... The entire purpose of the gpu is to off load the calculations from the processor yes? So with T&L support =Faster High quality imagery (givin good bus speed of the memory and bandwith ) the cpu will have no problem dealing with the other components of the sim,netcode,and others overall

 :)

Offline skernsk

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I wonder with all this IL2 stuff..... What...
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2001, 01:11:00 PM »
Do they use icons?  :p

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2001, 01:25:00 PM »
I think HTC is having trouble dealing with Il-2.  You see, until now, they were the only flight sim on the market.  They didn't have ANY competition.  Now they do.

I suspect that they will see the futility of their efforts and in one mad attempt to grab the cash and run, they will bump up the monthly subscription fee to $10,000 and shut down the next day... retiring to the Bahamas in one final attempt to get Pyro laid.

Deez... you'd better cancel your account and run while you still have your cash.  HTC's realization of futility will pale in comparison towards the vengance directed to the person that brought it to light.

AKDejaVu

Offline AKSWulfe

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I wonder with all this IL2 stuff..... What...
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »
3-5K of what?

3,000 to 5,000 what?

Or is it 3 to 5KB?

That's per update most likely if it's 3 to 5KB. I download roughly 15MB of information in 3 hours of Aces High.

How much do you download in 3 hours of a constant 32 player game?

That would be interesting. The fact that the host and client must send up to 4x the data rate to communicate the damage decals and damage to apply it might get bogged down very fast with only 60 people online if they ever publish a MMP version.

The world itself doesn't communicate. Only player position updates. But supposedly there are a lot of AI units in the online portion... or you can load a lot. Now, how many AI objects are allowed to spawn and how many player controlled objects are allowed to spawn at the same time?

I know it's limited.. is it still limited to 16 live players and 16 AI controlled objects?

There's a reason for that... therefore I don't see a MMP version of IL-2 comin' 'round the mountain no time soon.
-SW

Offline Fury

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I wonder with all this IL2 stuff..... What...
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2001, 01:39:00 PM »
What are the min requirements for IL-2 anyways?

I can play AH with my Pentium Pro 200mhz, 16meg Creative Labs Graphics Blaster.

Don't get me wrong, from what I've played so far, the IL-2 demo is pretty good.  Until IL-2 can offer what AH can, it's just a boxed game that looks good.  My idea of fun is online, and I don't mean 8 or 32 people.  128 is close -- but a bunch of dogfighting with no other real reason to fly except to dogfight is not my idea of fun anymore (had enough of that at FA).  Good for a change of pace, yes, but not as my primary source of fun.

The day that IL-2 can run as smooth as AH on my system, with 200 people in the room, and some resemblance of strategy -- then there will be something to talk about.  For now, HTC has nothing to worry about with IL-2.

Just my opinion.

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2001, 01:47:00 PM »
DZ, if the GPU is not able to perform faster than 50% of the CPU's capability, then thier is no gain in anything.  The GPU only needs to be about 50% faster at calculations then the CPU as they calculations are done in parallel with the CPU, thus to get more performance, it only needs to be half, or better, as fast than the CPU at the same calculations.
Now, that is just the calculation side.  To perform these calculations the video card must have all vertex buffer data stored on the video card for the given object tobe rendered correctly.
If the card runs out of memory for all the vertex data (which can be very significant), then the card can either unload memory to load the new object or operate over the AGP bus to modify the data directly in CPU ram.
Either of the above can be expensive.
This is why most T&L cards come with at least 32MB of ram.  
I can tell you, as I have tested it, the GF2 MX 32MB cards in a 900+Mhz CPU will perform much slower with T&L enabled versus no T&L.
And on all GF2 cards (have not yet tested the GF3), if there are more than 8 light sources, the performance goes into the bit-bucket with T&L enabled.  This is usually not an issue for a flight sim, but worth noting.
One of the misunderstandings about T&L, is one you brought up.  It will not enhance the visual quality of a 3D image.  It only serves to move current operations from the CPU into the video card.  In fact, it can have a detrimental effect on the quality of the image, depending on what lighting algorythm is used on the card.
I am speaking from an experience point of view as I have written a lot of code to test the various impact hardware T&L can have and not have.
The GF2 cards are more L than T in thier hardware implementation, while the Radeon is pretty balanced between the two.  GF2 cards really did not add anything for the T side to enhance anything other than basic texture management, where the Radeon actually added cubic environment bump mapping.

Anyway,.. I guess that is enough for right now.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline Staga

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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2001, 03:56:00 PM »
Fury I'm glad there's a sim which gives some work to do to my CPU and GPU.
Otherwise I would feel I've wasted money for nothing.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2001, 08:09:00 PM »
What Miko said.

Bells and whistles (perdelki i pischalki  :)) are good to attract new users, and definetly are nessesary for an offline sim. Many WB pilots that play with us use 2D mode, even having systems that run 3D perfectly smooth in hi res.

As for MMP in IL-2 - at Moscow Air Show, where Russian Warbirders (members of Flying Barans squad) won 4 top places in IL-2 beta tournament, Oleg said there will be only 32 players option. But I am not sure it's true: from some other sources I heard that MMP code is being worked at. Oleg is an interesting person, extremely self-confident and "sebe na ume" - not showing much of his real ideas, as we learned since we first met IL-2 crew in Feb, 1999. So I will not put my bet on any possibility.

If IL-2 will have MMP feature, even with subscribtion fee - it will be the first game that has nice offline gaming to train before entering the cruel online world.

Maddox Games was famous for their previous product, ZAR, a nice offline/online FPS.

Offline luthier

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I wonder with all this IL2 stuff..... What...
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2001, 11:08:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SWulfe:
3-5K of what?

3,000 to 5,000 what?

Or is it 3 to 5KB?

That's per update most likely if it's 3 to 5KB. I download roughly 15MB of information in 3 hours of Aces High.

How much do you download in 3 hours of a constant 32 player game?

I run IL-2 beta servers a lot. We can rarely gather a lot of people, but we fill up the game with AI planes and tons of ground objects.

So, here are the pretty basic and not very accurate benchmarks.

MP game with 14 human and 18 AI opponents (12 Ju-87's, 8 Bf-109's and 12 La-5FN's), plus about 70 tanks engaged in a ground war, about 20-30 pieces of flak and a few artillery batteries. We played for about 1.5 hours, during which I sent 2.7 Mb of data and received 2.3 Mb. I figure the numbers were pretty much the same on the client side.

That's about 4 kb/s downstream and upstream, roughly - but it was spikey as people were entering the ground battle area, and getting down as more and more got shot down and switched to watching the action. I'd say in the are between 3 kb/s to 5-7.