A Peaceful Religion

[Habu]

The following article is a good read. I posted here for Chairboy.

We Muslims must admit that our religion might be motivating the bombers

From Time Magazine | Essay

When Denial Can Kill

We Muslims must admit that our religion might be motivating the bombers
By IRSHAD MANJI


Posted Sunday, Jul. 17, 2005

I was surprised last week to learn how easily some Westerners believe terrorism can be explained. The realization unfolded as I looked into the sad face of a student at Oxford University. After giving a speech about Islam, I met this young magazine editor to talk about Islam's lost tradition of critical thinking and reasoned debate. But we never got to that topic. Instead, we got stuck on the July 7 bombings in London and what might have compelled four young, British-raised, observant Muslim men to blow themselves up while taking innocent others with them.

She emphasized their "relative economic deprivation." I answered that the lads had immigrant parents who had worked hard to make something of themselves. I reminded her that several of the 9/11 hijackers came from wealthy families, and it's not as if they left the boys out of the will. Finally, I told her about my conversation three years ago with the political leader of Islamic Jihad in Gaza. "What's the difference between suicide, which the Koran condemns, and martyrdom?" I asked. "Suicide," he replied, "is done out of despair. But remember: most of our martyrs today were very successful in their earthly lives." In short, there was a future to live for--and they detonated it anyway.

By this time, the Oxford student had grown somber. It was clear I had let her down. I had failed to appreciate that the London bombers were victims of British society. To be fair to her, she is right that marginalization, real or perceived, diminishes self-esteem. Which, in turn, can make young people vulnerable to those peddling a radical message of instant belonging. But suppose the messages being peddled are marinated in religious rhetoric. Then wouldn't you say religion plays some role in motivating these atrocities?

The student shifted uncomfortably. She just couldn't bring herself to examine my suggestion seriously. And I suppose I couldn't expect her to. Not when Muslim leaders themselves won't go there. Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general for the Muslim Council of Britain, is an example. In the midst of a debate with me, he listed potential incentives to bomb, including "alienation" and "segregation." But Islam? God forbid that the possibility even be entertained.

That is the dangerous denial from which mainstream Muslims need to emerge. While our spokesmen assure us that Islam is an innocent bystander in today's terrorism, those who commit terrorist acts often tell us otherwise. Mohammed Atta, ringleader of the Sept. 11 hijackers, left behind a note asserting that "it is enough for us to know that the Koran's verses are the words of the Creator of the Earth and all the planets." Atta highlighted the Koran's description of heaven. In 2004 the executioners of Nick Berg, an American contractor in Iraq, alluded on tape to a different Koranic passage: "Whoever kills a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind." The spirit of that verse forbids aggressive warfare, but the clause beginning with except is readily deployed by militant Muslims as a loophole. If you want murder and villainy in the land, they say, look no further than U.S. bootprints in Arab soil.

[Habu]

Continued

For too long, we Muslims have been sticking fingers in our ears and chanting "Islam means peace" to drown out the negative noise from our holy book. Far better to own up to it. Not erase or revise, just recognize it and thereby join moderate Jews and Christians in confessing "sins of Scripture," as an American bishop says about the Bible. In doing so, Muslims would show a thoughtful side that builds trust with the wider communities of the West.

We could then cultivate the support to inspire cross-cultural understanding. For instance, schools throughout the West should teach how Islamic civilization helped give birth to the European Renaissance. Some of the first universities in recorded history sprang up in 3rd century Iran, 9th century Baghdad and 10th century Cairo. The Muslim world gave us mocha coffee, the guitar and even the Spanish expression olé! (which has its root in the Arabic word Allah). Muslim students would learn there is no shame in defending the values of pluralism. Non-Muslim students would learn that those values took great inspiration from Islamic culture. All would learn that Islam and the West are more interdependent than divided.

Still, as long as Muslims live in pretense, we will be affirming that we have something to hide. It's not enough for us to protest that radicals are exploiting Islam as a sword. Of course they are. Now, moderate Muslims must stop exploiting Islam as a shield--one that protects us from authentic introspection and our neighbors from genuine understanding.

[Chairboy]

Good article, thanks for posting!

[Habu]

When you hear the Saudis supporting such a interpretation of their religion then there will be hope for global peace. However when is punishable by death to question the Koran in any way you can expect more and more radicalization of the Muslim world.

I do not expect any prominent Muslim cleric or Saudi leader to ever back this writers view. A reason I say it is not a peaceful religion.

[Viking]

Buddhism is the only truly peaceful religion, and that one is really more of a quasi-religion. All other major religions preach violence in some form or another. You only have to listen to Seagoon preaching on about killing off the Muslims to realise that. He finds (not really) surprisingly many Bible passages to defend his despicable views.

[Eagler]

right - I can picture Seagoon beheading Muslims on the tele can't you?

God and the belief in the Divine is not the problem. It is a small group who warp and twist their interpretations of the message for their own greedy and perverted agenda who then "lead" their usually ignorant/poor masses into a life of hate and death with the promise of a better life in the after world.
As stated Buddhism is peaceful. That is because it is in a purer form. Once you start layering specifics to it, it opens the door for mans perversions.

[takeda]

Originally posted by Eagler
right - I can picture Seagoon beheading Muslims on the tele can't you?

No, but he seems too keen in digging for crap about them and spreading second hand hatred from tainted sources. Just like those fundamentalist imams that brainwash the young muslims.
I loathe seeing someone that religion has put in a position of authority over those who believe using it to sow prejudice and hatred in their minds.

[Eagler]

I don't think by exposing the thoughts and beliefs of the radicals, Seagoon is pushing any kind of agenda onto anyone. The average joe over here doesn't realize what we are truly up against. I guess the difference lies in the fact that no one would give an Islam hater who spewed total lies and fabrications air time whereas it seems to make the nightly news over there without anyone calling them on it ...
I think it is slightly easier to brainwash the average arab than it is the average us joe due to various reasons if not just having freedom of speech and not a state controlled television. Given that fact and the fact the average Muslim is more "dedicated" to his/her religion over there than the average "Christian" here in the states, it is easier for them to swallow whatever stink bait is drifted in front of them hook, line and sinker than it is here.

[Seagoon]

Hello Takeda,

Originally posted by takeda
No, but he seems too keen in digging for crap about them and spreading second hand hatred from tainted sources. Just like those fundamentalist imams that brainwash the young muslims.
I loathe seeing someone that religion has put in a position of authority over those who believe using it to sow prejudice and hatred in their minds.

Actually, the vast majority of my time is spent doing other things like visiting families, counseling people, preparing bible studies and sermons and preaching them, visiting the sick or doing emergency visits to those in crisis, serving on Presbytery committees, doing session work, bringing food, babysitting kids for free,  and so on. I try to spend as much of my "day off" (Monday) with my own family, but a lot of the above spills over into that day as well.  

The majority of my interaction with Islam occurs on the AHBBS, and that is largely because it is an almost constant topic of conversation around here. On the three discussion boards I interact on semi-regularly, I don't believe I've ever entered into a discussion of Islam. I have written one or two essays critical of Islam's history and teachings elsewhere, but nowhere have I ever advocated "killing the Muslims." My teaching is generally not from the via negativa, but consists of a positive presentation of Christianity. If you doubt this, then please feel free to scan my online sermons which are a matter of public record at: http://providencepca.sermonaudio.com

Takeda, I spend a lot of time speaking with men (both Christian and non-Christian) who have spent, in some cases over a decade now, interacting directly with "the religion of peace" and many of them have seen things again and again firsthand like their willingness to literally use their own children as bullet shields, to blow themselves up at a moments notice, to decapitate and torture in the most evil manner imaginable. As a result many of them are of the opinion that the only way to have any hope of peace is to carpet bomb the entire area in oblivion. I on the other hand end up arguing against that view and that "kill 'em all" while it may be an easier solution, is simply not Christian.

As for "digging for second hand stuff" I don't really do much digging. Much of it I'm forced to do because of the "Source? Source?" stuff that happens otherwise, and because frankly no one here reads Arabic and very few understand that the material generated by Islamists in English for Western consumption generally follows the Taqqiya/dissumulation principle.

Frankly, while I expect it, I get tired of the constant "Seagoon is just as bad line" as well as the view that I should either not comment on Islam at all (despite having studied it in a secular institution) or simply spout sweetsounding lies and baseless liberal theological drivel with no connection whatsoever to reality. I also get tired of having to interact with a caricature of my views, especially when I actually post my views without attempting to hide anything. Unfortunately, I find that I have to respond to views that simply work from the syllogism

1.) I believe all Fundamentalist Christians are hateful, uneducated, murderous idiots who are worse than the Taliban*
2.) Seagoon is Fundamentalist Christian
3.) Therefore Seagoon is a hateful, uneducated, murderous idiot who is worse than the Taliban

Surely if I was my caricature, I'd hate you as much as I'm hated and that would become apparent? Why if I'm my caricature do I genuinely love you guys and hope and pray that only good happens to you?

If I'm the enemy - and lets face it, societally and not just in here, Westerners have far less difficulty hating and attacking evangelical Christians like me (in some ways a "the enemy of my enemies is my friend" mindset is rapidly developing in the Western left towards the Islamists) - and I'm the one who needs to be feared and fought against, then you aren't going to be willing or able to deal with the people who really hate you and wish you and your families dead or enslaved.

Ah well... Nihil Novi Sub Sole.

- SEAGOON

[straffo]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Takeda, I spend a lot of time speaking with men (both Christian and non-Christian) who have spent, in some cases over a decade now, interacting directly with "the religion of peace" and many of them have seen things again and again firsthand like their willingness to literally use their own children as bullet shields, to blow themselves up at a moments notice, to decapitate and torture in the most evil manner imaginable.  

How many have interacted with muslim in the USA, France Morocco ?

[john9001]

Originally posted by straffo
How many have interacted with muslim in the USA, France Morocco ?

i have, and almost all muslims i know have moved to the USA because they don't want to live in a country controlled by a islamic govt.

a muslim friend from morocco told me he was going to spend his day off "fishing and drinking beer", i said "beer? but your a muslim", he replied "oh john, i'm not that kind of a muslim, i drink beer and eat pork just like you".

[Eagler]

Originally posted by john9001
i have, and almost all muslims i know have moved to the USA because they don't want to live in a country controlled by a islamic govt.

a muslim friend from morocco told me he was going to spend his day off "fishing and drinking beer", i said "beer? but your a muslim", he replied "oh john, i'm not that kind of a muslim, i drink beer and eat pork just like you".

and i am sure that is anyother reason the "true" <- read cheekbones> muslims hate    us. we are the corruptors of the world in their eyes.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Viking
Buddhism is the only truly peaceful religion, and that one is really more of a quasi-religion. All other major religions preach violence in some form or another. You only have to listen to Seagoon preaching on about killing off the Muslims to realise that. He finds (not really) surprisingly many Bible passages to defend his despicable views.

Buddhism is/was one of the two major religions in Japan and it's peaceful influence was unapparent in the 30's and 40's. I think unbridled Nationalism was the overiding religion of the era for them.

Without Islam would middle easterners have any connecting or motivating identity to eliminate Israel and despise the west?

Without humanistic socialism would Europeans have any motivation to despise America?

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by john9001
i have, and almost all muslims i know have moved to the USA because they don't want to live in a country controlled by a islamic govt.

a muslim friend from morocco told me he was going to spend his day off "fishing and drinking beer", i said "beer? but your a muslim", he replied "oh john, i'm not that kind of a muslim, i drink beer and eat pork just like you".

I was very good friends with a person in college that lived in Kuwait in the first Gulf War.   He left to get away from the Islamic Control.

[Habu]

I lived in Muslim countries for over 5 years. I even had a Muslim girlfriend for a couple of years. I lived in Muslim neighborhoods and interacted daily with my neighbors.

Here is the scenario. Nice poor family have kids. Parents are Muslim but outside of attending the local mosque really have no active involvement in any Muslim cause. The can't afford school so they send their sons to the free Madras school. Son learns all about Jihad and why it is good to fight for the Caliphate. They come home respected as they are "educated". Might even have the whole Koran memorized but know little or nothing about any conventional school curriculum.

Son comes home and starts to convert friends over to the cause. Friends mostly aren't interested but a few are. Soon there is a nice little club spreading the word.

Soon nice peaceful neighborhood is an active hotbed for trouble.