Turn Turn Turn

[calan]

Ok... Not a reference to a song by The Birds....  (Am I dating myself here?   )

Been doing some research, testing, and playing with turn data on different planes, and need some thoughts and opinions....

1. Do the JU87's and 88's really turn as well as it seems?

2. What is the relationship between a plane with a tight radius and decent speed, versus a plane with a larger radius and faster speed? (like planets orbiting the sun). If they are in effect making concentric circles in a sustained turn, who has the advantage and why?

3. How does the instantaneous turn rate compare with the sustained turn rate in an AH dogfight? I'm guessing that a better ITR relates to a plane that is more "snap" friendly and able to make more decisive quick maneurvers.

Just trying to collect information on turning in general, as it relates to game play in AH.

Calan

[bozon]

Ahh yes, the inevitable turning dilemma: sustained vs. instantaneous, rate vs. radius.

The answer is as always - it depends. You might want to check the help forum for multiple discussions on the subject.

Sustained turning and turn rate are often very overrated, even by fighter pilots at the beginning of WWII. The Germans were first to realize this and changed their design philosophy accordingly and shocking the allied with the FW190. The fault lays in 2D thinking and imagining the fight as either "one circle" (planes with co-centric turning circles) or "two circle" (planes with circles creating figure 8) fight. In practice, the situations is usually neither and as planes got faster and more powerful, the vertical dimension opened up to become more and more important for maneuvering. Also, powerful guns enabled getting a killing shot without the need to "saddle up" on your enemy and pepper it with one or two rifle caliber mg (WWI style).
And finally, speeds got so high and planes sturdy enough that the piece of meat in the cockpit was what limited G pulling.

Once you go beyond one/two circles 2D possibilities you realize that the geometry (positioning and flight path) of the maneuver you choose will buy you more angles advantage and quicker than any turn rate advantage. Controlling the geometry means quick acceleration (power/weight ratio), deceleration (high wing loading shedding E in a turn) that control your turning radius and ability to quickly change attitude and orientation (roll rate) that rotates the turning plane.

At speeds of over 200 mph the difference in turn rate between planes is small. Sustained turn rate and minimal turn radius becomes important if you are stuck in a slow 2D fight - as in low and slow on the deck with no room for vertical maneuvering, or if the other guy is saddled on you close behind thus making your circles overlap getting you back to the old "one circle" situation. At least for long enough time to kill you. Btw, this is why shaking a bandit that is sitting on your 6 is so hard.

[calan]

Originally posted by bozon

Once you go beyond one/two circles 2D possibilities you realize that the geometry (positioning and flight path) of the maneuver you choose will buy you more angles advantage and quicker than any turn rate advantage. Controlling the geometry means quick acceleration (power/weight ratio), deceleration (high wing loading shedding E in a turn) that control your turning radius and ability to quickly change attitude and orientation (roll rate) that rotates the turning plane.

Yeah I know...   but I'm looking at... other things being equal (imagine that 2D fight for a moment)...  what is the most important thing to consider from a turning standpoint?

Speaking of deceleration...  I need a good test for it. Not for energy retention (where the plane naturally bleeds E), but for purposely slowing a plane as fast as possible. The problems I'm running into for designing a test are when and how (and if you can) deploy flaps and use rudder.

Any ideas?

Thanks bozon

[VooWho]

I did a turn test with a La7 offline and found out that at 1,000ft doing the sharpest turn you can, the La7 stays at a speed of 200mph, and bairly loses any speed, and you don't black out. This is one of those turn fights you get in when you try to out circle the other guy (will out turn) and blast his (This Program is now disabled from your COX cable network)

Thats y I hate it when I'm up against a La7 is that they don't loose much speed on their tightest turns.

[bozon]

Originally posted by calan
Yeah I know...   but I'm looking at... other things being equal (imagine that 2D fight for a moment)...  what is the most important thing to consider from a turning standpoint?

OK if you insist on a 2D low'n'slow fight:
1 circle fight - I'd say that a small turning circle is the most important thing. If you can move inside your enemies circle, he'll never get his guns on you. He will either circle you and fly into your guns or if the difference in radius is big enough, you reverse at the right moment and get a snap shot at him (add a little 3rd dimmention and you can saddle up in a rolling maneuver). However, the plane with smaller minimum circle will usually also have better turn rate if matching the circle of the other one.

2 circles fight (8 figure) - turn rate is more important. First one to come around will get the 1st shot.

If you start with a lot of speed turn rate is not a factor since both planes are limited by 6G blackout. when the speed is a little slower, instantaneous turn rate will give you initial advantage on the 1st circle, but then you'll get to a slow sustained turning. Turn radius is king in this case as you can choose to commit, blow you E and achieve a much smaller turning circle thus starting the fight in a more favorable position (inside his circle, non co-centric circles).

Speaking of deceleration...  I need a good test for it. Not for energy retention (where the plane naturally bleeds E), but for purposely slowing a plane as fast as possible. The problems I'm running into for designing a test are when and how (and if you can) deploy flaps and use rudder.

How about this:
Climb, dive down to the deck for high initial speed (say 350 mph) and pull a hard flat turn limited either by blackout initially (don't over do it or you get locked) or the stall horn when speed drops. If you want to loose even more speed, cross controls - turn left and deploy full right rudder sustaining the turn with left ailerons. Deploy flaps if you can and want.

Film it and the in film viewer measure the time from 350 to say 150 mph.

[calan]

Originally posted by bozon

How about this:
Climb, dive down to the deck for high initial speed (say 350 mph) and pull a hard flat turn limited either by blackout initially (don't over do it or you get locked) or the stall horn when speed drops. If you want to loose even more speed, cross controls - turn left and deploy full right rudder sustaining the turn with left ailerons. Deploy flaps if you can and want.

Film it and the in film viewer measure the time from 350 to say 150 mph.

Interesting approach...  how about if you wanted to do a straight-line brake? (Maintaining direction and altitude within some certain tolerance)

Thanks bozon