Author Topic: How to survive the B&Z  (Read 721 times)

Offline Bubbajj

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How to survive the B&Z
« on: December 23, 2006, 10:44:34 PM »
Howdy All. I've been doin better lately and have managed to stay at about 2/1 kills to deaths, which is incredible considering what it was when I started. I've started haveing more of those "GOT YA!" moments as I become engaged in a duel and see the mistakes of my opponents and capitalize on them. The one I'm having the most problems defending against is the classic B&Z. High con, at least 1.5 alt advantage, start the dive and I can't seem to avoid them. I try to wait till it appears the attacker has a huge E overage and then try to dodge. It seems just about every time they manage to get a solution or slow down to saddle me. Can someone please give me a few pointers on evading the B&Z E-fighters.

Offline porkfrog

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2006, 01:41:15 AM »
the best advice if gotten so far is to begin a slow, slightly nose down, turn. nothing crazy or heavy G, just a simple nose down turn. as enemy reaches 1k and closing, pull more G's and break a little harder.  if it's a noob stick, this tends to cause them to blow by with no shot. watch what the other guy does as you make your break, if he tries to stick with you and is blowing his E, odds are he is a newcomer. if he immediately zooms away, you might be in for a longer haul.

i still have trouble with pony pilots that manage to dive in, hit the brakes, and "saddle up" on me.

also, if you have enough alt, try and utilize the Split S. what i will do is wait till they are about 1k \, while acting as if i dont even notice them, then roll into a serious Split at the least second. After they make their pass and zoom off, i come out of the S into a shallow climb, gaining just enough alt to perform another Split. I then go level and WEP, to get as much E as I can b4 next pass. Wash Rinse Repeat. Eventually they end up co-alt, co-E and then it's game on.

i'm by no means any good at this game, and i'm sure someone else will come along and tell you what the "right way" is, but what i use works well for me and others i know.

lastly, it's most important to learn about what those BnZ planes can do. The more you know about the NME a/c, the better your odds of survival.


good luck and <>
-JoLLY
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Offline Blagard

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2006, 04:07:56 AM »
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 04:11:04 AM by Blagard »

Offline humble

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one of the hardest....
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2006, 10:01:37 AM »
things to recognize is the transition from B&Z to Energy fighting. As a general rul the "true" B&Z involves a high speed pass with fairly significant extension. Normally I'll stay high and begin a verly slightly nose down low G turn at 2.0 or so. I want the con to pull for the shot...at 1.5 I'll tighten the turn and tuck the nose under just a bit...at 1.0 to 800 I'll roll back to level and pull up into a barrel roll to the opposite direction. "Normally" {but not always} this defeats both the "drive by" and the guy who's slowed down aggresively. The key is views...the accomplished  E fighter has countered and is hanging back in your 6 somewhere executing a lag roll or similiar tactic. You need to reaquire him quickly and counter his new attack. The true B&Zer will normally extend well out and has significant spacing bwtween attacks. The true E fighter extends in much closer to the true vertical and tightens his range on successive passes. Normally starting at 2.3- 30 total extension but quickly dropping to 2.0-1.5 and then even less denying you the chance to recover any initiative....

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Offline Widewing

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2006, 11:16:31 AM »
I spent over an hour in the TA with a player who wanted to learn BnZ technique. We worked on basic BnZ setup and the need to "pin the enemy down" to prevent him from recovering E.

Some players stick to the method of high-speed passes, zooming very high again and repeating this. The problem is that it is not very effective as it allows the target to recover E and, if he's smart, slowly eat away at the attacker's advantage. Pure BnZ is a rookie's game. They have no other plan beyond the initial pass. If the enemy is caught unaware, he may get a kill. If not, he will probably not get the kill.

Using a BnZ attack to set up an E fight is what the more experienced pilots do. Transitioning from BnZ to Energy fighting has been described by Humble previously. You cause the enemy to burn E avoiding your BnZ, but you zoom only high enough to reposition for another, almost immediate attack while the enemy is still maneuvering and slowing. This second attack is what "pins him down" and bleeds off his speed to a point where he is unable to execute effective out-of-plane maneuvers. At this point the attacker transitions to angles fighting and goes for the kill shot.

There are several ways to counter the BnZ attack. I will often Spit-S onto a heading that is the reverse of the attacker. If he's carrying a lot of speed, he has no chance at a gun solution. Should he roll and follow, he will end up below and ahead of you as his speed will work against him. If he doesn't roll, but climbs out straight ahead, you have increased separation and probably have some speed built up yourself. if he reverses and comes back again, you now have the ability to meet him nose-to-nose on a merge. Granted, he will still have more speed than you, but you are well on your way to equalizing E states. Again, if he is doing the standard lazy BnZ drill, extend out a bit and immelmann back toward the enemy. Go for another nose-on-nose merge. If the guys goes for the HO, duck under his nose or barrel roll. Rinse and repeat until you have roughly equalized E states.

The Split-S evasion method is useful against the BnZ transition to E fighting by allowing you to evade without giving up speed. Naturally, if you are already low, a vertical Split-S isn't an option, so adapt to the circumstances.

Just remember that there are a lot of factors involved. If you are on the deck and already slow, an average pilot can kill the hotdog pilot simply because the hotdog has few, if any options. Mitigating issues include heavy fuel state. Nothing eats performance more than heavy fuel loads. Especially in US aircraft, with their huge fuel capacities.

Whenever attacked by a higher (and consequently faster) fighter, your two primary goals are to evade and to equalize E states. You can gamble on forcing an overshoot, but you had better not miss any shots that present themselves. Or, you can work at equalizing speed and take away the enemy's largest advantage. Either way, you should practice this as often as possible.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline B@tfinkV

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a quick film
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2006, 11:41:45 AM »
follow this LINK to a short film showing 5 pretty damn good example of the BnZ reversal.


these examples pretty much work in any plane VS all but the best pilots and gunners.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: a quick film
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2006, 12:06:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
follow this LINK to a short film showing 5 pretty damn good example of the BnZ reversal.


these examples pretty much work in any plane VS all but the best pilots and gunners.


Nice examples Batfink.

For those unsure of what the transition from BnZ to Energy to Angles fighting looks like, here's a short film that shows a P-38G making a BnZ run on a Spit V. The P-38G transitions to E fighting mode to pin the Spit down, and then goes to Angles mode for another shot.

FILM

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Yoshimbo

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2006, 04:31:25 PM »
Ahh, the bnz this still gets me many times, height = speed = he can dictate the fight, which in turn = life for the bnzer and death for you.

I'm no expert or "ace" in the game in any way, but i've found that the Spit S is good to get em off ya if he is comin from behind, if he is coming from HO then just dive under him, they almost nva eva getcha when u do that.

i always climb when i can nvr too steep so as no to blow muh speed, and when i break it is rarely a very high G maneuver, like what porkfrog brought out.

But then i found this to be helpful at times:

Rule #6 of the Dicta Boelcke

6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it.

I've been trying to fly more aggressivly when attacked from above, not allowing myself to be put on the defensive. I've had some success with this, both while flying my Zero, destroying a La5 who dove on me with atleast 2k on me and a couple of times agasint a ki84 who had some 5k on me.

climb when you get a break carefull not to lose your too much speed so that you cans till maneuver when the avacado comes back around eventually the pilot is gonna get co-e w/ ya.

hope this helps

Offline Mace2004

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2006, 10:00:07 AM »
This is a good rule of thumb, but it's only a rule of thumb, not gospel.  Consider it your first "automated response" to an attack: when attacked from a position of advantage your first goal to neutralize the attack by turning into the attacker.  Yourgoal is a neutral pass (i.e., directly nose-to-nose).  While this will typically get you accused of "Hoing" in AH, it is exactly what you should be doing and people who complain about this are absolutely clueless.  Your goal is to take away his angles as his angles are what're going to kill you.  

So much for your first reaction but when being B&Zed you need to take this to a second level and recognize that there are two aspects to be neutralized.  Angles and E.  E is only important in that it gives him options and the ability to convert E to angles.  E alone is only "potential" and, unless converted into something useful (angles, separation, etc.) is completely meaningless and cannot hurt you.  If you can continuously take away his angles he can B&Z until his cowardly little heart is content and it won't do him any good.  On the other hand by attempting to make every pass neutral you're keeping your e low and probably letting him maintain his so the need to neutralize his angles needs to be weighed against maintaining your e for when you really need it while getting him to bleed his.

So how does this weigh against Boelcke?  If you consider Boelcke's "dicta" as rules of thumb it works well.  Step one is always to survive and the best way to survive (assuming you can't just dive away) is a kneejerk reaction to turn into your attacker.  Once you've assessed the situation you modify this reaction into an intelligent gameplan to turn defense into offense.  Let's just take the rule of thumb and apply it to a B&Z.  You've got a bouncer on your high six so you do a nose low turn to a position directly under him while building some speed.  He starts his dive so you pull directly up into him for a neutral pass and perhaps a snapshot.  OK, so far you've followed Boelcke's Rule #6 but where does that leave you?  You're nose-up, decelerating, with little e and you're a grape hanging there to be picked while your opponent pulls out of his dive and goes up and over returning to his position of advantage with the same e he started with.  If, on the other hand, your initial turn is to put him directly on your lift vector while keeping your nose down (and e up) and keep him there you're creating the conditions for an overshoot and reversal.  He'll likely bleed e while you maintain it.  Once he's about co-e then you either force an overshoot and you reverse or you just take him 180 out on equal terms.
Mace
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Offline stockli

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2006, 12:33:30 PM »
I am by no means an ace, BUT I like to make sure my nose is pointed at the enemy at all times when they have the alt advantage.

When you see them coming you will have alot of options rather than jerk the stick and hope for the best.

Offline Saxman

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2006, 02:24:44 PM »
Here's what I do:

If I see a con high and behind me, either already on his attack dive or I suspect he's going to make one, I play along and let him think I don't see him. Make gentle maneuvers, like a shallow turn to one side, or maybe a shallow climb (enough to gain some altitude without sacrificing airspeed).

As the target dives in, I wait until he's ~1.5-2k out, then snap over into either a full Split-S or a Low Yo-yo (I try to aim for a "loop" about halfway between a level break turn and a full Split-S). I keep my eye on my target as I pull through and enter a climb. If it's a less experienced pilot and is coming in TOO hot, he'll usually overshoot the dive and will now be below me while still trying to recover. IMMEDIATELY as he passes below me I roll into another Split-S. At that point, unless he has a HUGE amount of E, I'm now in behind him and just need to wait for him to try pulling into a climb or turn to close distance and finish him off. I've found this can be VERY effective, especially if you're in a plane with good energy retention and that can accelerate well in a dive (F4Us are good for this, also because of their rate of roll and high-speed turning ability).

If the guy's a little better stick he may pull out of his dive before he overshoots and pop back up for another run before you can execute the second reverse. At that point I continue my climb and watch for him to come back again, then repeat the Split-S again at 1.5-2k distance. Eventually, you'll wear him down to the point where he WILL overshoot the dive and you can follow with the second Split-S to drop in on his six. Even the best E-fighter and BnZ plane is going to slowly give up his altitude advantage if he doesn't nail you on the first couple passes, and it only takes him dropping a few hundred feet below you to reverse and pop him.

Obviously, this works better if you have at least 5-10k of air below you.

Another option is a snap roll at the right moment (full back-stick and rudder, best performed in whichever direction is your plane's "natural" roll. IE, most planes that will be to the left, due to engine torque). This can bleed your E pretty quickly, but could force an overshoot. Also, it makes your plane a little harder to target.
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Offline BaldEagl

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2006, 05:23:13 PM »
If I am coming toward you in a B'n'Z with you below me and you turn your nose up at me I guarantee that 95% of the time you will die.  I don't mean to be harsh but that is simply the wrong thing to do.  You are giving up E while I'm gaining it.  Even if you live through the first pass it will be a short life as you're losing manouverability and options while I'm gaining.

There are two things that you can do depending on altitude.  

If both you and the attacker are high go into a mild dive away from him.  As he draws nearer but still out of gun range increase your dive rate.  If he already started with speed from above you he will have to either pull up or, if he cooses to continue, cut throttle to maintain his attack.  If he pulls up you're free for now.  If he cuts throttle he's giving up E.  Either way you're gaining E and beginnig to equalize the fight.  

If he cuts throttle to continue keep diving until he enters gun range then roll to one side and break or roll into a split S.  He won't be able to stay with you as he's already got a speed advantage.  If he chops throttle to break with you you've done your job, robbing him of all of his E.  If he zooms by go into a mild climb, WEP on to regain some of your lost alt and repeat as nessesary.

If you are on the deck and the attacker is above you you obviously can't dive.  In this case fly to a position as directly below him and as close to the deck as you can.  You're trying to make his dive angle so steep that he will either have to climb out, cut throttle or become a lawn dart.  Again, as he approaches gun range roll and break.

These two simple tactics are the best I've found against higher opponents.  They won't guarantee you get out alive but they will increase your chances of survival and allow you to equalize your footing.
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Offline BaldEagl

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2006, 09:14:42 AM »
I tried to edit my last post this morning but it wouldn't let me.

Last night I was in the LW Blue arena.  I had a high Typh and a high F6F above me.  I was in a Spit VIII low.  They alternated B'n'Zing me, extending and re-gaining their perches above.  I used the exact tactics mentioned in my last post.  Over the course of 5-10 passes each I was gaining some alt and they were slowly losing some.  Finally the Typh flew away, either bored or frustrated.  Soon after the F6F took one last desperate attempt, burned off most of his E and I chased him on the deck back to his carrier waiting off-shore (of course I broke off before I got in range of the Task Groups guns).

Just thought I'd post this little testamonial as my post made me very consious of it as it was happening to me.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 10:43:06 AM by BaldEagl »
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Offline stockli

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2006, 12:03:48 PM »
Eagle, I didnt mean to literally point your nose up at him. but make sure he is in front of you at all times.  ie you see him out the front of your wind shield somewhere.

that way you know what hes up to.

like I said im no ac.

Offline BaldEagl

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How to survive the B&Z
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2006, 12:59:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stockli
Eagle, I didnt mean to literally point your nose up at him. but make sure he is in front of you at all times.  ie you see him out the front of your wind shield somewhere.

that way you know what hes up to.

like I said im no ac.


stockli, it was more Yoshimbo's post that almost made me spit my coffe on the screen when I read it.

I still disagree as the diving extension away works almost every time given alt (and, of course, your nose is pointed away).  It works for three reasons:

1.  You are tempting your opponent to drop as much alt as possible, and therefore as much E as possible.  When he climbs/extends he will not end up at his initial alt due to gravitational forces combined with air friction.

2.  You are tempting your opponent to fly to the limits of his airframe forcing the decision to break off and climb back out or cut throttle to manitain his attack.

3.  All the while you are gaining speed/kinetic energy allowing you more manouvering options.

Keeping your nose pointed in "his direction" does work in the low alt scenario if you're trying to get position underneath him.

Again, for either/both of you, I wasn't intending to sound harsh and appologize if I came off that way.  I really do mean to help you be better.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.