"A War We Just Might Win"

[Viking]

Originally posted by Elfie
Some of us here have family members in Iraq. Pretty sad to think that you wish this upon us. If this is truly how you feel, understand that sometimes things are better off left unsaid.

Yeah I know, it's a terrible thing to wish upon anyone. However, you wouldn't be the first nation that had to learn the hard way that war is not something you embark on for profit or glory. Germany had to learn it twice, so did the French in their time, and it took 50 million lives to teach Germany that lesson the second time. Many of those lives were American. Aggressive warfare must not be allowed to succeed no matter what the cost. Lets hope that your education is less costly.

[Elfie]

However, you wouldn't be the first nation that had to learn the hard way that war is not something you embark on for profit or glory.

That is merely your opinion.

[Viking]

Of course it is. Everything I post is merely my opinion unless I quote someone/something else.

[crockett]

Originally posted by john9001
ALL presidents are "voted in" by the electoral college, you obviously don't know how the US elects it's presidents.

You obviously didn't understand what I said.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Elfie
Total votes from both elections. You are correct for 2000 and incorrect for 2004.



http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0876793.html
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/

The system did not fail. The 2000 election does illustrate a fundamental flaw in the system itself imo. Whoever gets the most votes should win and I'm not talking about some dork from the Electoral College voting. I'm talking about Jane/Joe American's votes. The 2000 election is a perfect illustration of why Jane/Joe American's votes do not count because ultimately, it is the Electoral College and not us that vote in the president.

Yes that's the point I was getting at. That the majority of the American people didn't vote for Bush in 2000. But because we use the Electoral College Bush still won. That is IMO a flaw in the system and it failed the majority of the people in this country.

When I talked about 2004 I meant if Kerry had contested the election counts, I think he would have won the majority of the people's vote. I realize as it now stands Bush won the majority, but I think it would be a bit different had their been a recount. I blame Kerry for not demanding a recount.

I myself am aware of the BS that went on in the 2000 election, because my vote didn't get counted. The Republican party had lawyers at the voting booth's challenging people's right to vote.

I had moved, and there was a mix up on my address, even though I had sorted it out prior to the cut off date and was assured
I would have no issues. My vote in 2000 was still challenged and thrown out because of the Republicans lawyers. I was given no say or ability to prove anything, in fact I didn't find out my vote didn't count until about 4 weeks after the election was over.

While I was there 8 other people's right to vote was also challenged by Republican lawyers. I was there about 30 mins, so who know's how many people lost their right to vote, due to Republican lawyers.

Democrats weren't pulling the same BS in 2000 at least not at my polling station. So yea I do believe Al Gore won in 2000 and it was stolen. and I believe it was likely the same in 2004.

If you want to watch a very good documentary on the voting fraud watch "Hacking Democracy" it was produced by HBO.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-365586126885215066&q=Hacking+Democracy&total=62&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

btw don't want to run this topic off track anymore.. so we can carry it on in another topic if needed..

[Elfie]

When I talked about 2004 I meant if Kerry had contested the election counts, I think he would have won the majority of the people's vote.

Probably not, Bush won by over 3 million votes. (popular vote)

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Elfie
There was evidence of WMD's before  the invasion, that evidence turned out to be false. I have already linked sources for Saddam's link to terrorists (note I did not say Al-Qaeda)

A "link" to terrorism isn't a big deal, the US has plenty.

The US has engaged in, and is linked to terrorists attacks / activities in Iran and Nicaragua. The US assisted one leader via intelligence to use WMDs (gas) against an enemy. On top of that the US has toppled a democratically elected gov and installed a puppet who sold out 40% of that countries natural resource business to US companies.

Oh yea Saddam tortured people, wait.. under Bushs current definition of torture, Saddam didn't really torture anyone, just rough treatment... a no brainer dunk in the water... like the good times at Abu Ghraib.

And more recently the US has invaded, devastated and bombed a once viable country into the stone age causing a humanitarian disaster... paid much attention to the UNs report of the horrific death and suffering directly related to the war?

The US has links to terrorist attacks, invaded a country that didn't attack, or cause ONE innocent US citizen death by "terrorism", has denied due process to the accused, tortured / kidnapped a few folks... an invasion based on a pile of bogus lip service, mostly totally false.

Why is Saddam a bigger dick for having terrorist links, invading a country that didn't attack him based on BS, using WMDs, tortured / kidnapped people, denial of habeas corpus and all that.. when our leaders haven't acted much different over the years?

[RedTop]

Some of the vitrol I read in this and other threads....makes me wonder. Lets see....Senate votes for the war.....hmmm

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 107th Congress - 2nd Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate


Vote Summary

Question: On the Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 )  
Vote Number:  237 Vote Date:  October 11, 2002, 12:50 AM
Required For Majority:  1/2 Vote Result:  Joint Resolution Passed
Measure Number:  H.J.Res. 114
Measure Title:  A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Vote Counts: YEAs 77
 NAYs 23
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State


Alphabetical by Senator Name Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Campbell (R-CO), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Nay
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Nay
Corzine (D-NJ), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Nay
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
 Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Fitzgerald (R-IL), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (D-FL), Nay
Gramm (R-TX), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Helms (R-NC), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Hutchinson (R-AR), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Nay
Jeffords (I-VT), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
 McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Nay
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nickles (R-OK), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-NH), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thompson (R-TN), Yea
Thurmond (R-SC), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wellstone (D-MN), Nay
Wyden (D-OR), Nay  

House?  lets seeeeee...hmmmmm

FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 455
(Republicans in roman; Democrats in italic; Independents underlined)

      H J RES 114      YEA-AND-NAY      10-Oct-2002      3:05 PM
      QUESTION:  On Passage
      BILL TITLE: To Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq


                  Yeas    Nays    PRES NV
Republican   215       6           2
Democratic     81    126          1
Independent            1    
TOTALS        296     133          3




---- YEAS    296 ---

Ackerman
Aderholt
Akin
Andrews
Armey
Bachus
Baker
Ballenger
Barcia
Barr
Bartlett
Barton
Bass
Bentsen
Bereuter
Berkley
Berman
Berry
Biggert
Bilirakis
Bishop
Blagojevich
Blunt
Boehlert
Boehner
Bonilla
Bono
Boozman
Borski
Boswell
Boucher
Boyd
Brady (TX)
Brown (SC)
Bryant
Burr
Burton
Buyer
Callahan
Calvert
Camp
Cannon
Cantor
Capito
Carson (OK)
Castle
Chabot
Chambliss
Clement
Coble
Collins
Combest
Cooksey
Cox
Cramer
Crane
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cubin
Culberson
Cunningham
Davis (FL)
Davis, Jo Ann
Davis, Tom
Deal
DeLay
DeMint
Deutsch
Diaz-Balart
Dicks
Dooley
Doolittle
Dreier
Dunn
Edwards
Ehlers
Ehrlich
Emerson
Engel
English
Etheridge
Everett
Ferguson
Flake
Fletcher
Foley
Forbes
Ford
Fossella
Frelinghuysen
Frost
Gallegly
Ganske
Gekas
Gephardt
Gibbons
Gilchrest
Gillmor
Gilman
 Goode
Goodlatte
Gordon
Goss
Graham
Granger
Graves
Green (TX)
Green (WI)
Greenwood
Grucci
Gutknecht
Hall (TX)
Hansen
Harman
Hart
Hastert
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Herger
Hill
Hilleary
Hobson
Hoeffel
Hoekstra
Holden
Horn
Hoyer
Hulshof
Hunter
Hyde
Isakson
Israel
Issa
Istook
Jefferson
Jenkins
John
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Kanjorski
Keller
Kelly
Kennedy (MN)
Kennedy (RI)
Kerns
Kind (WI)
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Knollenberg
Kolbe
LaHood
Lampson
Lantos
Latham
LaTourette
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Linder
LoBiondo
Lowey
Lucas (KY)
Lucas (OK)
Luther
Lynch
Maloney (NY)
Manzullo
Markey
Mascara
Matheson
McCarthy (NY)
McCrery
McHugh
McInnis
McIntyre
McKeon
McNulty
Meehan
Mica
Miller, Dan
Miller, Gary
Miller, Jeff
Moore
Moran (KS)
Murtha
Myrick
Nethercutt
Ney
Northup
Norwood
Nussle
Osborne
Ose
Otter
 Oxley
Pascrell
Pence
Peterson (MN)
Peterson (PA)
Petri
Phelps
Pickering
Pitts
Platts
Pombo
Pomeroy
Portman
Pryce (OH)
Putnam
Quinn
Radanovich
Ramstad
Regula
Rehberg
Reynolds
Riley
Roemer
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Ross
Rothman
Royce
Ryan (WI)
Ryun (KS)
Sandlin
Saxton
Schaffer
Schiff
Schrock
Sensenbrenner
Sessions
Shadegg
Shaw
Shays
Sherman
Sherwood
Shimkus
Shows
Shuster
Simmons
Simpson
Skeen
Skelton
Smith (MI)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Souder
Spratt
Stearns
Stenholm
Sullivan
Sununu
Sweeney
Tancredo
Tanner
Tauscher
Tauzin
Taylor (MS)
Taylor (NC)
Terry
Thomas
Thornberry
Thune
Thurman
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Toomey
Turner
Upton
Vitter
Walden
Walsh
Wamp
Watkins (OK)
Watts (OK)
Waxman
Weiner
Weldon (FL)
Weldon (PA)
Weller
Wexler
Whitfield
Wicker
Wilson (NM)
Wilson (SC)
Wolf
Wynn
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
 


---- NAYS    133 ---

Abercrombie
Allen
Baca
Baird
Baldacci
Baldwin
Barrett
Becerra
Blumenauer
Bonior
Brady (PA)
Brown (FL)
Brown (OH)
Capps
Capuano
Cardin
Carson (IN)
Clay
Clayton
Clyburn
Condit
Conyers
Costello
Coyne
Cummings
Davis (CA)
Davis (IL)
DeFazio
DeGette
Delahunt
DeLauro
Dingell
Doggett
Doyle
Duncan
Eshoo
Evans
Farr
Fattah
Filner
Frank
Gonzalez
Gutierrez
Hastings (FL)
Hilliard
 Hinchey
Hinojosa
Holt
Honda
Hooley
Hostettler
Houghton
Inslee
Jackson (IL)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E. B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Leach
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller, George
Mollohan
Moran (VA)
Morella
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
 Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Paul
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (CO)
Udall (NM)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson (CA)
Watt (NC)
Woolsey
Wu

[Elfie]

This thread isn't really about those subjects xmarine.