Author Topic: Vacuum Flaps? (Read 527 times)

yankedudel · « **on:** December 12, 2007, 10:03:56 AM »

I know that there were aircraft of this vintage with vacuum operated flaps that only had one setting and would only go down below a certain air speed when the wind resistance was less. Pilots would fight with their flaps down and not worry about them because they would go down when their airspeed dropped then retract if their speed was up.
Does anyone know which aircraft had these and if AH has recreated this in their models?

Saxman · « **Reply #1 on:** December 12, 2007, 10:28:55 AM »

Flap blow-back is modelled for all aircraft. However none of them auto-deploy.

However some aircraft whose flaps were NOT specifically designed for auto-deployment had that capability.

IE: The flaps on the F4U and F6F were spring-controlled. If the pilot left the flap control in the down position, the flaps would blow back up as speed increased, and dropped automatically as it decreased again. Pilots would generally set their flaps one or two notches "down" and leave the handle in this position. It wasn't the intent of the design, but it worked and they ran with it.

yankedudel · « **Reply #2 on:** December 12, 2007, 10:40:39 AM »

Thank you sir. I knew it wasn't the voices in my head telling me they existed.

Krusty · « **Reply #3 on:** December 12, 2007, 11:30:29 AM »

"blowback" (as you call it) is not modeled in AH. Many planes would bend critical parts or fail if too much airflow slammed into them. Only a few were designed specifically to retract to prevent damage in real life.

What AH has modeled is the pilot automatically retracting flaps based on the maximum speeds he has been taught in the manual. AH also takes care of other "minute" bits like fuel mix, constant fuel switching, and other things. The reason they don't "redeploy" is because they're "up" now, instead of "waiting to spring back out" -- there's a difference. Want 'em down again? Hit the flaps down button again.

EagleDNY · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2007, 12:14:59 PM »

Krusty - the only problem I see with your argument is that you don't always know that your flaps have auto-retracted on you. Depending upon your soundpack, the cockpit layout, etc - you might not hear or see your flaps retracting, and trying to look down into your cockpit to see where your flap lever is in the middle of a dogfight can be a bit of a problem.

I would prefer that in planes like the 109 with a flap wheel, the flaps stay down, and if I rip em off or damage the plane, thats my bad.

If a plane had auto-deploying flaps, they should auto-deploy here too - that is part of the aircraft design (just like the auto-deploying slats we get on the 109s) and NOT modelling it puts that aircraft at a disadvantage.

EagleDNY
$.02

Krusty · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2007, 12:28:56 PM »

Only a few planes had auto-deploying flaps, one of them being the N1k2 (if I recall), and I personally wouldn't WANT them to automatically deploy every time they hit a certain AoA. That would totally screw up what you want to do. Like flying with combat trim on it might be nice for beginners (which is what it was designed for -- inexperienced "green" pilots thrown up against the US aces), but for those that know what they're doing it'd hinder more than help.

Arguments for auto-retract have been made before. I think we'd hear endless nonstop whining about snapping-off-flaps if they just broke off (oh, and jammed into place with the way AH models them popping off!) when they reached their limit. Not to mention the nonstop whines HTC has pointed out would happen about "they wouldn't snap off at the limit! They'd have a tolerance way past that!" and so forth.

If you were so desperate in a fight that you needed your flaps and sped up past their deployment speed, and then all of a sudden decelerated so fast you need them out again, then you might want to rethink your dogfighting tactics. You're probably more a threat to yourself than to the enemy (no offense meant, just pointing out a possibility). EDIT: This didn't come out right. What I mean is that I've had my flaps retract on me many times and have never been so harried that I have to jump/react with lightning speed to get them out again. There's always time enough to hit the "flaps down" button again.

Given the alternative, I prefer auto-retract. I never have any problems hearing when they go back in (turn your flaps sound up or go back to default), and most planes I can look out the wing or have easily visible flaps meters (most, not all are easily visible).

moot · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2007, 12:45:06 PM »

If we get the manual control of routines like "pulling up flaps at the taught max. speed", we should also get the choice to manualy leave the auto-deploying flaps as they came from the factory.
The same way we get manual control of tracers in the belts.

EagleDNY · « **Reply #7 on:** December 13, 2007, 12:58:44 PM »

LOL - you are right about that - there would be whining and debate about what speed they should deploy at / retract at / be damaged at / etc.

In most rides you are right - its just the rides I like to fly (Ki-84 being one) the cockpit layout makes it tough to see the flap indicator, and if you get in a tight turnfight in her, flap deployment gets critical. You can keep tapping the flaps down, but a notch too much is just about as deadly as a notch too-little in that situation. Can I do without the auto-deployment, sure - it would just be nice to have.

The 109s (another ride I tend to fly) shouldn't auto-retract at all, and I would really prefer to be able to "rip it" (Ok - so I started off in WW I flight sims

) If I'm in a turn fight and have a notch of flaps out, I'd rather hear the "groaning metal" sound or catch some buffeting action to clue me in to throttle back a bit instead of just hearing the flaps come up on their own.

We each have our preferences. No big deal as I still think the FM we have is the best I've flown.

EagleDNY
$.02

BaldEagl · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2007, 01:24:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by EagleDNY
Krusty - the only problem I see with your argument is that you don't always know that your flaps have auto-retracted on you. Depending upon your soundpack, the cockpit layout, etc - you might not hear or see your flaps retracting, and trying to look down into your cockpit to see where your flap lever is in the middle of a dogfight can be a bit of a problem.

I never look at my flap settings in a fight (F6F). If I'm not turning hard enough I dump another notch. If I need more speed or need to go vertical I retract a notch. When the fight's over I retract until I can't anymore. It's a matter of feel and what I need the plane to do. To that end I don't think I'd want them auto-deploying.

trigger2 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 14, 2007, 12:39:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by EagleDNY
and trying to look down into your cockpit to see where your flap lever is in the middle of a dogfight can be a bit of a problem.

Here's what I do... Move my HAT command on my stick either to the left or to the right and look for myself to see if theyre out, plus, you should usually try to go off of feel rather than "I need 23% flaps at a constant airspeed of 124 KPH to outturn the blahblahblah" I try to go "Okay, theyre outturning, let's put out somemore flap" or "Okay, theyre outturning, lets cut the throttle some"