How to beat the f4u ?

[mtnman]

A rolling scissors is more of a coil, or rather two coils intertwined.  A series of barrel rolls.

The maneuver you're describing seems to be a normal "flat" scissors flown vertically, and while descending, rather than horizontally.

Neither needs to be flown at a constant net altitude...

Two planes performing a rolling scissors could do it in a vertical sense as well, although we'd probably think of it as a descending spiral.

Of course, I could be misinterpreting your description too...

[SgtPappy]

No, actually that's right on Mtnman.

The maneuver seems to work for any a/c as long as they are 'opposites' in terms of diving and turning capabilities. When I'm in a better diving plane, I can extend in this maneuver by getting farther and farther away while losing less alt than just diving away with her/him still on my tail. In addition, if my aircraft turns worse, I can be pulling hard until the stall buzzer comes on which actually makes me lose more speed. By trying to follow through with the turn, she'll/he'll be gaining more speed if she's/he's a better turner because her/his plane does not have to come near to a stall in order to pull the same AoA. This makes the e/a overshoot eventually.

If I'm a better turner, I can turn tighter when I pull up and leave the e/a behind and by the time I invert for another pull out, she's/he's lagging behind and I can engage in another maneuver.

However, I've never tried it yet on human players so I wouldn't know if it truly works all the time.

[Vantec]

I also want to throw out a personal thank you to bald, sax, mtnman I have learned sooo much and will put these tactics into practice in the air being a Green pilot myself (Spits for now) great information here for anybody that wants to really get into the game and become a good pilot.

Kudos for all! ^_^

[whiteman]

sweet was looking for this for a friend, most helpful f4u post I've been able to find.

[iTunes]

Don't really know that much about Spits but I will say this much:
When engaging a Hog, just be prepared to go through with it right to the end, If it's 1v1 then you will have to have a lot of patience, don't just dive in there due to frustration, altitude plays a big part too, A spit 14 will Energy fight the Hog to death, you know the Hog will dive and extend etc, Fine let him do that, But you have to make him want to come back up again, He will if you can trick him well enough. I'd be more worried taking on a 38 If I was in a spit rather than a Hog.
Just my 2 cents mind.

[vizwhiz]

I'd like to say something about this thread in BaldE's defense, although that may not be a very popular thought...I'm still a nice guy, and open to help, so don't write me off cuz I'm looking at this thread cross-ways of the hog pilots.

I read through this whole thread, and granted, it has been a lot of help to understand the hog-pilot mind, but I'm still thinking back to my encounters with hogs in my normal spit16 ride...cuz I like it...and I'm not sure I have really picked up on very many extra "how to's" for in my Spit...I mean, we all should know very well now (after reading this, I mean) what the hog pilot is likely to do...and that helps a lot...but what other options do I have besides dragging him down to the deck and killing his E, especially if a good hog pilot is not going to bite that bait?

I can honestly say I've RARELY been beaten by a hog at low/slow/turn fighting on the deck...been picked a buzillion times while doing it, but RARELY been actually beaten during the fight...  I almost ALWAYS get beaten by hogs while up in the air anywhere above 1k alt, so I have been reading and reading, and don't see a lot of "other" ideas...where are the ace Spit pilots out there?  Nothing personal (AT ALL) here, but asking a hog pilot how to beat a hog is like Delilah asking Samson the secret to his strength...DUH!  (I know you guys are actually being helpful, seriously, but it's kinda like asking the wrong person for help, dontcha think?)

It isnt' that I'm a good pilot, kinda just a utility player / handyman (can fly, gv, bomb, etc.)...  so I tend to lose patience in a hog fight, I chase them around, do lots of stupid things... I lose sight of them after merge, just as Sax said, (won't be so naive next time).

But somebody talk to me about my guns, I got 20mm's! When do I use those potato chunkers to gain advantage over the 50cal's? 
What about that fast turn rate at slower speed (cuz we're already turning) right after the merge...can't I use that to gain a quick gun solution after the hog goes by and take a snapshot?? 
What about a scissor fight?
What about "hiding" behind/below when he's at higher alt cuz he has that big plate behind his head and I don't? 
What about...well...I certainly don't know the answers to my questions, but I seem to have a lot of them!
I would appreciate some real spit-focused advice here!!!

And in all fairness, there may NOT be a good way to fight a hog in a spit...that's another logical possibility here...the spit may simply be outclassed by the hog's size/strength/advantages...but I've watched SHawk and others kill hog after hog (after pony after LA after typhy) in his Spit9...and at altitude to boot!
  to all who've posted


 

[Saxman]

But somebody talk to me about my guns, I got 20mm's! When do I use those potato chunkers to gain advantage over the 50cal's? 

Any time you have a guns solution. The 20mm Hispano has ballistics nearly on par with your two Brownings, so if you can hit with the .50s, the 20mm should hit with minimal adjustment

What about that fast turn rate at slower speed (cuz we're already turning) right after the merge...can't I use that to gain a quick gun solution after the hog goes by and take a snapshot??

A lot depends on speed and who you're fighting. First, initial merge is unlikely to occur at low speed. Or at least at a speed at which the Spit takes over with the advantage in cornering ability (beware the Hog's cornering ability down to speeds of around 200-250mph. Her instantaneous turn is insane in that range, especially with one or two notches of flaps). An experienced Hog is unlikely to give you this opportunity as he won't be staying level, but probably going up instead. I would not use a flat turn against ANY opponent after merge to try and pick up a shot. You're going to kill a lot of E for very little gain, as you're very unlikely to have a shot before your opponent extends out of range. A vertical maneuver like the Immelmann, or extending vertically for a wingover would be better.

What about a scissor fight?

A scissors fight is all a contest of "Who can get slower faster" so falls in with the general strategy of bleeding the Hog out of E previously mentioned. The idea is that you're pressuring/baiting the Hog into blowing his E to get a snapshot, which can be good for you. However a wary Corsair is unlikely to bite.

What about "hiding" behind/below when he's at higher alt cuz he has that big plate behind his head and I don't?

Again, a lot depends on your opponent and how well he maintains his SA. An experienced Hog pilot knows to keep an eye out in his 6 Low, and will rock periodically to make sure no one's back there.
 

[mtnman]

...so I tend to lose patience in a hog fight, I chase them around, do lots of stupid things... I lose sight of them after merge, just as Sax said, (won't be so naive next time).

This is a big thing- IMO lack of patience will get you killed, especially when dealing with a difficult situation.  For me, the most difficult planes to beat are the Hurri's and Zeke's.  It's not that I see them as much of a threat, I don't.  But since my goal is to shoot them down before I leave, problems can arise.  With my speed they can't get away, nor can they catch me.  In order for them to kill me in a "fair 1v1" I feel I need to to hand the kill to them (get greedy, lose patience).  There's really no reason they should be able to do anything but defend themselves otherwise.  But to kill them I need to get inside their defensive range, where they can pull guns on me in almost any situation.  My "normal" instinct is to turn quickly and tightly to get a quick early kill, but with those two planes that doesn't work well for me.  I need to patiently set up a me higher/faster, them lower/slower situation, and then convince them to come nose up at me for a rope (they lose patience/get frustrated) so I can drop on them when they're too slow to be able to dodge or keep guns on me.  I patiently set up a situation where they're helpless, and I'm not.  This is not a quick fight for me- it generally takes me several minutes (5-7?) to do this, so I need "privacy".  I've even been able to take a "four 14k Hurri's vs one (me in a 10K F4U)" situation and turn it into me landing all 4 kills, but it took lots of patience and a full tank of gas.  I obviously needed to extend/drag/equalize E states and then build an E advantage several times.  The first three Hurri's were killed above 8K, the last on the deck as he decided he had an appointment he'd forgotten about.  While it surely wasn't an in-your-face tight-turning on-the-deck fight it will last as one of my most memorable/fun/fulfilling fights.  It was a long, active fight with at least one of them always within 2.5K.  The key was patience on my part.  And having enough height/speed to give myself the options I needed.  And again, they couldn't leave without my permission, nor catch me.

What about "hiding" behind/below when he's at higher alt cuz he has that big plate behind his head and I don't? 

Every time I see this comment, I think to myself "Oh yea, I guess I do have a blindish spot there...)  In reality, with my views set-up and my constant paranoia of being snuck up on, good luck surprising me there.  It's the most obvious spot you'll try to catch me from, so it's high on my list of priorities to monitor...  Even if this does work, you're beating the pilot, not the plane.

What about...well...I certainly don't know the answers to my questions, but I seem to have a lot of them!
I would appreciate some real spit-focused advice here!!!

Spit-focused...  All the planes (fighters)in the set fly the same manuevers.  They just fly them at different speeds, sizes, etc...  And they need to be flown differently versus different opponents, in different conditions (fighting a high/fast spit is different than a low/slow spit, and me in a low/slow F4U is different than me in a high/fast F4U).  I'll use options against a fast spit I'd never dream of against a slow spit, and vice versa.  Giving you a spit-specific method to kill an F4U is difficult at best. 
Personally I find most F4U's to be easy kills, but that's probably due to the fact I'm quick to recognize situations where I can capitolize on a perceived weakness on thier part.  As a trainer I'm used to watching my "students" closely, and watching for slight mistakes (in ACM, or in timing, or SA, or throttle/flap management, or whatever...) they make so we can correct them.  In the MA I see those same mistakes made (and I'm watching for them).  I react to those perceived mistakes quickly/automatically, which normally works well, but actually gets me in trouble if I mis-interpret what I see against a skilled pilot.
 

In most general terms- A slower plane will not be able to pin down and dictate fight conditions to a faster plane.  If a slower plane can get a faster plane slow enough, it can dictate fight conditions for a temporary period (until the fast plane regains speed).  If the slower plane loses control of the fight before he gets his kill, he's in trouble again.  The F4U is faster than the spit.  To really dominate the fight the spit needs to get the F4U slow, but still have plenty of speed himself.  The natural progression of fighter planes has been to make them faster.  There's a reason for that.  The Spit vs F4U issue is similar to any plane trying to defeat a faster plane.  At an extreme, lets take a Zeke/F4U fight and replace the planes with an F4U and an ME262.  How does the slow plane beat the faster?

IMO, it comes down to pilot decisions/mistakes.  But whether those decisions are mistakes or not depends on plane types and specific conditions.  Losing patience and making bad decisions won't help you beat the planes you have trouble with.  Telling you to use a certain aspect of the spit to defeat the F4U is like telling you to dance the waltz by starting with their left foot.  What comes next? 

IMO, AH fighter combat is like partner dancing without a pre-planned choreography- you'd better pay attention to your partner and what's around you, or you'll look like a fool.

[Hazard69]

This is a GREAT thread a very big  to all who have contributed to it.

I'm mainly a P38 driver so I have learnt a great deal from these excellent write ups....(you know cause depending on the match-up the 38 can be in the spit's or Hog's shoes )

This thread, in crystal clarity, demonstrates why in the real world, an aircraft's speed was considered one of, if not the most, important attribute.