Author Topic: Formation flying  (Read 161 times)

Offline Fastbikkel

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Formation flying
« on: April 18, 2001, 07:55:00 AM »
Howdy guys,

I was reading some topics here about bombing and AI bombers. Also some people seem to have problems with formation flying.

Well, personally i think this is ridiculously easy.

If you are flying lead, tell your buddies that you are using a lower ammount of manifold pressure. Let's say 15 lower. This gives your buddies and any wounded planes the chance to keep up with you.

Formation flying with fighters is the same thing. You think the guys back in ww2 flew all the way to the target full throttle?? Don't think so.

For the guys who are following the lead plane. Line up with the leader, then take some horizontal space. Press alt+x or x (dependending on wether you are still climbing or not) and let her fly herself. Just keep an eye on the formation once every minute to see where your position in the flight is.

O yeah, one more thing. When you are lagging behind a climbing leader. Don't try to climb towards him, this takes forever. Instead, fly level, gain speed (and close distance) then pull up steeply. Repeat this until you are within good range.
This is my way of doing this and i must say i like it much.

I have been flying formation with b17's with 3 other ones and it went fine.
Carpetbombing is something you will all have to agree on when approaching the bombrun or on takeoff.


Hope to hear some responds,


FB.(JG5)

Offline Ripsnort

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Formation flying
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2001, 08:00:00 AM »
I will do a training film on Buff formation flying that will be narrated when I get a few squaddies drug over to the Training Arena.

Beltfedd

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Formation flying
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2001, 11:56:00 AM »
Formation flying is easy if you have a good leader.  Unfortunately I have been in B-17 sorties with 12+ bombers where the leader will just gun it and go, leaving a string of 17s behind him.  The other issue is that you aren't just flying, you will be scanning outside the aircraft for bogies and manning guns.  During that time it is easy to fall out of formation, especially if the leader makes even a small course change.  Keep in mind, if their is going to be any advantage to a formation, the bombers must be able to cover eachother.  I would think that would require being within at least 400 yards of of the nearest bomber, as your buddy would be shooting deflection at whatever is attacking you, making the longer range shots you might be capable of much more difficult for him.  

The ideal situation would be to have a gunner on each bomber, but I don't know if I'd really want to take 24 pilots out of my countries air force to fly a realistic 12 plane B-17 box formation to a target.  But the fun factor would certainly be high   .

Belt

[This message has been edited by Beltfedd (edited 04-18-2001).]

funked

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Formation flying
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2001, 12:41:00 PM »
Good advice FB.

Most leads in the MA don't know to throttle back a little and don't understand form-up procedures.

And many guys don't know how to catch up.

Hope they read this.  

Offline Fokker

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Formation flying
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2001, 02:55:00 PM »
I think most guyes are able to formation flying if they realy put their mind to it. However, on long buff missions it becomes quite boring.

Then you have the situation of SA. As soon as you start looking around, or get attacked the formations splits up. Very few manage to keep formation while they are maning guns or bombsights.

Naturally enough, in real life it takes a whole crew to do that.

Thats why I would like an "auto" formation commando. Something like the padlock. You mark the leader and activate key for formation. Then your plane will follow the leaders movements within set limits.

To break out of formation you do just like you do today when breaking out of autopilot options.

Offline Sabre

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Formation flying
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2001, 03:39:00 PM »
There is a trick to flying good buff formations, and it involves flying from the gun positions (preferabley nose gun).  I'll try to post the complete treatise on this when I get home, but the gist of it goes like this.

Once you're planes are all airborne, Lead sets and announces climb speed (145 works good for B-17).  He then backs off power by 10 to 15% from full; this gives others something to work with.  Everyone else goes to the nose gun after setting climb speed and engaging autopilot.  You then stear with rudders to hold you position side-to-side to the leader, and throttle to hold verticle position.  Remember that auto-climb raises or lowers the nose to maintain speed. Throttling up will cause the nose to rise to maintain a set speed; throttling back will cause the nose to drop.

If you find yourself to far behind lead, set a climb speed a few miles per hour faster than lead and use throttle to maintain the same altitude as lead.  The plane will speed up, closing the gap. Once you're approaching the desired separation, reset climb speed to what ever lead has set. The nose will try to rise to kill your speed, so just throttle back.

Now, why does this work?  Well, it's relatively easy to get two planes headed in the same direction.  What's hard is to match speeds (and there fore zero-out closure rates).  Once you have everyone in close formation, you can engage any enemy (remember, you're already in the guns, and using outside view to scan and watch your position in formation) for several minutes without the formation getting all strung out.  This is because the autopilot will do most of the work of maintaining your position.

I know this sounds counter-intiutive, but it works.  The Buccs regularly keep large formations (6 to 12 buffs) in tight formations, fending off attacks while holding it.  Hope this made sense to people.  My other write up on this is much more comprehensible.

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Offline Fastbikkel

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Formation flying
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2001, 01:17:00 AM »
Leader should always keep the group up to date.
Any coursechanges should be told before making the change.
Preferably a couple of minutes before and just before. This way everybody is prepared.

A group should have about 4 planes. I would be very enthusiastic to fly a buff formation with 12 planes or more.
12 planes (in my opinion) should be 3 groups of 4 planes. 1 lead group and the rest following.
But this will take practise i guess, not to mention flights of 48 buffs.

Interesting discussions,

FB.

Offline hblair

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Formation flying
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2001, 02:44:00 AM »
Didn't read the whole thread, but a fundamental to keeping the group clean and tight is to use the J and L (rudder trim) keys while on auto, instead of using the stick. You can make slight corrections in course doing this, without having to roll your plane.

The Assassins can pull several planes within less than a hundred yards like this.

Offline Graywolf

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Formation flying
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2001, 01:01:00 PM »

Uned to fly big formations a lot in WarBirds with 617 Squadron. 400yds separation is too far out to cover each other IMO, 100yds is where you really want to be.

The lack of autogunners really hampers the defensive capabilities of a good formation. What I see happening is everyone sitting in the tail turrets and (usually) all aiming at the same plane while his two friends carve up the formation without anyone firing a shot at them.

The point about the leader making sure that everyone is notified about course changes beforehand is a very valid one. We used to give an initial warning making sure that both the direction of the turn and final heading are mentioned, then a countdown.

If you have people with English as their second language it can also be halpful to drop hints as it 'which left' you mean withthings like this tagged onto the turn message '<<<<<<<<' (some of the native English speakers seem to do a lot better when these hints are dropped too =). Also the leader should limit turns to about 30 degrees of bank. It's not hard to follow a sharp turn, but it's damned hard to maintain formation while doing so.

These are some things I've picked up while flying bombers. This isn't the only way to do it though =)

Flying big formations of bombers can be great fun. It's the one thing from WarBirds that I really miss =(

Have a quick look at http://www.flibble.org/~tim/warbirds  if you're bored =)



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Offline Fokker

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Formation flying
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2001, 03:26:00 PM »
Why not a "follow leader" command you can activate as soon as you have found your position in the formation?

This would compensate for the lack of a full crew and dedicated pilot, which you would have in real life.

Offline Graywolf

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Formation flying
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2001, 08:22:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fokker:
Why not a "follow leader" command you can activate as soon as you have found your position in the formation?

This would compensate for the lack of a full crew and dedicated pilot, which you would have in real life.
[/QUOTE

My, purely personal, opinion on this sort of thing is that it would do increadibly tedious. IN much the same way I find solo bombing tedious.

The whole fun of bombing was flying the big formations.

Other people may like this idea, but I personally dont. Just my opinion =)



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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>

Offline Fokker

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Formation flying
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2001, 08:43:00 AM »
In WB flying in formation was easier because you had AI gunners to take care of shooting while you where keeping formation.

In AH you will gun yourself, so an AI to help keep formation makes sense to me.

Offline LePaul

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Formation flying
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2001, 10:22:00 AM »
I love formation flying, both in real life and here in the game.  The problems with it are (that I see most often..)

1.  Latency.  Poor fella who wants to be lead goes in and out of Warp drive, and the rest of the packs tries to back off/speed up as between the warps.  Nature of the net.

2.  Lead isnt experienced in leading a flight.  See it all the time.  They turn without warning the rest of the group or jink and jab across the screen, forgettting they have 9 people trying to stay with them.  <These are fun, tho, because the chat buffer REALLY fills up fast with "Will you hold still" and such>

3.  People not getting the same load...especially critical in bombers.  How many times have you had that one guy hauling in the rear because he grabbed 100% gas rather than 25%?  

I love the formation stuff, I find it to be one of the best defenses for aicraft like the Lancaster and Ju88.



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Paul J. Busiere

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BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)