Author Topic: Request For Turn Rate Data.....  (Read 639 times)

Offline Steel

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Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« on: December 16, 2008, 05:44:06 AM »
Gents,
      I am starting a little project was wondering if anyone has or can make some data regarding turn rate. Specifically data regarding turn rates of planes with stall limiter on vs off. Any common planes that new people would fly is great. I want to make a nice explanation of the benifits of not using stall limiter.

Thanks,
Steel

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 07:39:18 AM »
Best explaination is to set the other guy in same plane with stall limiter on and fight him.
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Offline Steel

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2008, 09:06:20 AM »
Well I was hoping people looking in the forums for help would be able to see a case with hard data.....

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 09:56:53 AM »
I've had folks that have been on less than a year telling me that turning it on improved their turns. It might improve "THEIR" turns but it handicaps the ability of the plane. I feel most that think it makes the plane better are not reading the help files anyway.
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Offline Steel

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2008, 10:31:17 AM »
Sadly I think your right......but its worth a little effort I think.

Offline eagl

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 09:13:40 PM »
Go to the www.hitechcreations.com website, click on the "community" button, and check out the links in there.  Look under "useful links" and "ahwiki".  The useful links page has a plane comparison site plus the official AH trainer site, which has a ton of info.  You might even find info on the tradeoffs with the stall limiter on those pages.

Also, DokG made this site some time ago: http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php  It has plane performance comparisons, but it's primarily focused on climb rate, speed, and weapon lethality.  It doesn't have turn rate info, but he got his data from other sites that might have turn rate data.  You might try asking him if he still has those links or that data.

Turn rate data is hard to come by, but keep looking.  If you can't find anything useful, you'll probably need to come up with a test protocol yourself and spend some time flying circles with a stopwatch.

As for the usefulness of the stall limiter, all it does is artifically keep the player from applying control inputs that will exceed a preset angle of attack that is somewhat lower than the actual critical angle of attack.  Only HTC knows the exact values used, although someone well versed in aerodynamics could probably make some very close guesses based on 3 things - 1. basic aerodynamic principles and equations, 2. how slow you can get the plane in level flight with stall limiter on and off, and 3. some smart guesses on what kind of airfoil profile is modelled for any given plane.  Even without knowing what kind of airfoil is used, you could probably come up with a close estimate of what percent of max lift you can get with the stall limiter enabled, and that would give you a corresponding estimate of how close to the critical angle of attack you're getting.  Plug that back into basic aero equations and you can guesstimate how much (as a percentage) turn performance you lose.

On the other hand, with some airfoils going to the max lift AOA will dramatically increase induced drag, so energy bleed might rise so fast that *most* players would benefit from using the stall limiter for no reason other than it would be easier to keep their energy and speed up.  The real life F-16, for example, flies with the "stall limiter" on all the time.  Yes it might give up a few percentage points in absolute turn performance, but it simply doesn't matter when flown by the average fighter pilot.  But get an F-16 going too fast when flying BFM against a plane without an AOA limiter (and flown by a reasonably talented pilot), and you might see the viper driver get surprised.  Been there, done that, took a valid aim-9 shot and called the kill.
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Offline moot

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 09:14:59 PM »
Didn't Kweassa do this already, for this version?
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Offline NEARY

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2008, 09:19:39 PM »
well i don't know but this link should give you turn rate information for fighters......

but i don't know about stall limiter...



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Offline Murdr

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 12:39:13 AM »
Kweassa's turn data with stall limiter on AHv2.06

Mosq's turn data w/o stall limiter AHv2.07

These are not exactly apples to apples since the thrust drag model was changed between 2.06 and 2.07.  The results data is not given in quite the same format.  However it's what has been published.

Offline uptown

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2008, 07:19:54 AM »
I believe you're getting turn rate confused with turn radius. Turn rate varies depending on speed/energy. :salute
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Offline eagl

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2008, 04:55:35 PM »
I believe you're getting turn rate confused with turn radius. Turn rate varies depending on speed/energy. :salute

Not entirely.  Turn rate is dependent on what airspeed at which the plane can either hit it's maximum structural (or allowable) G loading (instantaneous turn rate), or the relationship between how much it can load the wing at a given airspeed without losing airspeed (sustained turn rate).  Excess power often means a higher turn rate if all else is equal, but it is highly dependent on wing/airfoil characteristics, wing loading, and the maximum allowable G loading for a given configuration.

A plane with tons of excess power and lots of speed but limited to 2 or 3 G's (think SR-71) will be out-rated by anything that can sustain more Gs at the same or lower airspeed, regardless of it's energy state.

Here's a great presentation on rate and radius charts:  http://tscm.com/maneuver.pdf

As you can see from the charts in that document, a 60 deg bank turn at 200 kts will give you a much better turn rate (and radius) than the same 60 deg bank turn flown at 300 knots.  Pick your bank angle (bank angle is used in lieu of level-flight G loading) based on aircraft structural limits and whether or not you are looking at instantaneous or sustained turn rates, and you can get a good comparison of turn rates.

And that's why it's tough to come up with turn rate charts for the game...  The sustained turn rate is an energy maneuverability function, and as you said it varies based on speed and energy so without doing a complete EM diagram you end up having to plot the sustained turn rate at a variety of airspeeds and pencil in the curve to find the peak sustained rate.  And that's without considering excess power, structural limits, and wing design factors that might result in some planes having overall "better" characteristics at an AOA beyond the stall limiter's limit, and some might perform *for the average gamer* better when flown at an AOA below the stall limiter.  The best sustained turn rate just might be at an AOA significantly below the critical AOA.  It's tough to prove however, since HTC may tweak induced drag and lift equations with no notice so one test flight might be completely invalid in a new release.

One thing appears to hold true in AH however...  For most of the AH aircraft (and for most non-swept and non-delta wing planforms), you will maximize turn rate and minimize turn radius if you fly just above the stall AOA.  And your best instantaneous turn will of course always be at the lowest speed where you can get right up to the max lift AOA without damaging the plane.  Just realize that at that maximum AOA, induced drag might spike to the point where energy bleed is excessive, resulting in lower sustained turn rates and possibly increased turn radius.  I don't recall any planes in AH that exhibit that characteristic though, and in RL it's only typical of aircraft with very flat L/D curves like you find with delta wing aircraft (ie. modern jet fighters).


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Offline B4Buster

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Re: Request For Turn Rate Data.....
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2008, 05:17:53 PM »
I've had folks that have been on less than a year telling me that turning it on improved their turns. It might improve "THEIR" turns but it handicaps the ability of the plane. I feel most that think it makes the plane better are not reading the help files anyway.

I know what you're talking about, i've noticed it's mostly people that will E fight and pick who have the hardest time just because they're not used to turning basically
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