Stats, ENY, and Perks

[Anaxogoras]

I can see you now arguing what would happen if 2 similary skilled pilots (non arena standard) have a go. Then most likely the Spit will be the winner and gets massive perks for a easy kill. Yes this will happen once in a while, but not on the vast majority of encounters, where the skill levels differ widely. So while it may fail in the smallest possible event, it will still work well as a whole. 

But, lets say, for some strange and very unlikley reason, all of a sudden, only similar skilled players fly both the 16 and the J - then the sheer beauty of K/D strikes yet again: It balances itself all the time.

In a situation like above, the Js K/D ratio will go down just as quickly as the 16s will go up, reversing the situation. Now the superior plane has the lower ENY, just as you think it should have.

Thank you!  I could scarcely have said it better myself.  One more thing that could happen is that you'd see a lot more P-38Ls around with good pilots until the ENY lowered to match the rising ENY of the P-38J.

[Anaxogoras]

So instead of perk farming in C205s and the like, experienced sticks will now be perk farming in Spit16s and La-7s. Well, you know, that is if they have no shame whatsoever.

Ummm, in the scheme outlined above, the Spit16 still has an ENY of 5 and the La-7 is at 7, hardly perk farming material there.

The real perk farming would be done in the P-51B, F4U-1, 152, 109G-2, La-5, P-38G, etc.  All very capable aircraft that receive very little use because they have a brother that's a little stronger.

[BnZs]

  One more thing that could happen is that you'd see a lot more P-38Ls around with good pilots until the ENY lowered to match the rising ENY of the P-38J.

Or you could see what in fact would happen, people flying what they LIKE to fly, hang the rest, as I think most of us do. Except when the ENY numbers keep them from flying their Midwar Ride in the LW MA and they have to take up a Spit16 instead.  

You are really comfortable in punishing people for flying unpopular, less "uber" craft and learning  to handle them more skillfully than most?

[BnZs]

Ummm, in the scheme outlined above, the Spit16 still has an ENY of 5 and the La-7 is at 7, hardly perk farming material there.

The real perk farming would be done in the P-51B, F4U-1, 152, 109G-2, La-5, P-38G, etc.  All very capable aircraft that receive very little use because they have a brother that's a little stronger.

No different than now, except the cases where under this system the stronger brother would have the higher ENY number because it gets flown into the ground by the inexpert more often. 

[Anaxogoras]

Or you could see what in fact would happen, people flying what they LIKE to fly, hang the rest, as I think most of us do. Except when the ENY numbers keep them from flying their Midwar Ride in the LW MA and they have to take up a Spit16 instead.  

That could only happen if the P-38J's ENY were lower than the Spit16's.

You are really comfortable in punishing people for flying unpopular, less "uber" craft and learning  to handle them more skillfully than most?

Either people fly what they want and therefore I'm not punishing them, or people are super concerned about ENY and perks and I'm punishing them.  Which is it?  It can't be both.  That said, even if it's the latter, my ENY system would hardly punish P-38J pilots because the L would be there, sans the cool skins.

[BnZs]

That could only happen if the P-38J's ENY were lower than the Spit16's.

Either people fly what they want and therefore I'm not punishing them, or people are super concerned about ENY and perks and I'm punishing them.  Which is it?  It can't be both.  That said, even if it's the latter, my ENY system would hardly punish P-38J pilots because the L would be there, sans the cool skins.

If I want to fly a 38J,because of cool skins or whatever reason, and can't because I'm ENYied out of it, then you are punishing me. If I overcome a more capable ride with a less capable one at all, this system frequently punishes me by awarding fewer perk points, the only tangible reward in this game. If I push up the k/d of a ride that few people fly, the system punishes me AND everyone else who decides to take it for a whirl. Punishing success, IOW.

The whole reason some of us wanted to change the system was because of oddities like this, wherein shooting down an La-7 with a Ta-152 got you the same points as shooting it down with a Spit16, or where you get more points for shooting down planes with a P-51D than a P-47N, a system that considers the 109K "inferior" to the Typhoon...I could go on. The problem is, this system is creating more oddities, not less.

[Anaxogoras]

The problem is, this system is creating more oddities, not less.

Really?  Let's list them and compare:

Current oddities (add "imo" to every line):

• FW-190D-9 ENY is at 15, but could be lowered to 10 or even lower.
• F4U-1D/A ENY might be a bit too high at 15.  There's lots of aircraft they run-down and out-turn, and the 1D hauls lots of ords off a cv.
• 109K-4 ENY is too high.
• 190A-8 ENY is too high at 31.  It should be more comparable to the 190A-5 or 190F.
• P-47N ENY is at 5, which is far too low.  Should be ~15.
• 152 ENY is at 5, a lot like the 47N.  Regardless, its ENY should be higher than the 190D-9.
• F4F ENY is at 20, which is too low.
• P-39 series ENY is too low.

Now, I'm sure we can find a lot of comparable oddities in the system I propose, but let's be charitable and note which ones would likely balance out after one or two tours.  I'll let you fire away.

Edit: use this chart that compiles the last 6 complete tours:


One fix I can think of right away would be to artificially add a few points to the ENY of the cv aircraft because the cv fights skew their usage %.

[BnZs]

Uh, I believe I already pointed out what much of what was wrong in with this ENY chart in a post awhile back. I'll re-hit the highlights though: The F6F is above the F4U-1D, even though the F4U-1D carries two more rockets, is basically superior as a fighter, and both can take off of carriers. The Typhoon is very high on the list, above such fighters as the La7 and 109 K-4 to which it is basically inferior. The P-47D-40 is above the P-47N. The early/mid-war Fw-190 A-5 is also above the late-war P-47N, even though the A-5 is far inferior to the N in top speed, turns worse, and doesn't even haul much ordinance. The P-40E has ended up above the P-38G and P-39Q, two unquestionably superior MW planes. The P-40B has somehow even ended up above the SpitI, as has the HurriI. The Ki-61 has ended up above the La-5, the P-47D-11, the 109F-4, and the SpitV. This result is almost certainly the work of one or two players, yet here it is skewing the results.

Really?  Let's list them and compare:

Current oddities (add "imo" to every line):

• FW-190D-9 ENY is at 15, but could be lowered to 10 or even lower.
• F4U-1D/A ENY might be a bit too high at 15.  There's lots of aircraft they run-down and out-turn, and the 1D hauls lots of ords off a cv.
• 109K-4 ENY is too high.
• 190A-8 ENY is too high at 31.  It should be more comparable to the 190A-5 or 190F.
• P-47N ENY is at 5, which is far too low.  Should be ~15.
• 152 ENY is at 5, a lot like the 47N.  Regardless, its ENY should be higher than the 190D-9.
• F4F ENY is at 20, which is too low.
• P-39 series ENY is too low.

Now, I'm sure we can find a lot of comparable oddities in the system I propose, but let's be charitable and note which ones would likely balance out after one or two tours.  I'll let you fire away.

Edit: use this chart that compiles the last 6 complete tours:
(Image removed from quote.)

One fix I can think of right away would be to artificially add a few points to the ENY of the cv aircraft because the cv fights skew their usage %.

[Anaxogoras]

Ok, I've been working on a new ENY system with the help of 442w30 (brain work is his, I'm just adding to it) that is performance based.  Look for it soon.

[moot]

Hell, since this Anax's idea is obviously a lead balloon and no one wants to touch anything resembling objective ENY ratings, here is my new plane: Let a council of ye Learned Elder Sticks discuss and vote on the ENYs.

No changes except:
152 to 10-12 eny
47N to 8-10
...

you guys are getting stuck on finding a perfect formula, when in the mean time it's good enough to adjust a couple of the most obvious flaws, to within 5 points of what they ought to be. And you dont need stats to do this.. just fly and fight against all the planes in the planeset, enough.

[bongaroo]

I like the idea for one reason.

It will push people out of aircraft that are most commonly flown and into new rides when they refuse to switch teams when the ENY limiter kicks in.  That's what ENY means to me.

I don't really care about perk points.  So that argument does not affect me.  Also I have no qualms switching teams to avoid ENY problems (which neither of my rides suffer from currently anyways).

Anax's concept seems solid to me and I'm fairly sure I made a post a while ago asking about a system very similar to what he is proposing.  And I'm supporting this new system even though it would probably have me switching teams more often when first implemented since my main rides are the Ki-84 (best plane in the set) or the P-38J (my favorite plane to spread parts upon the cartoon arena with).

Also, all this fuss over the P38's makes me happy.  PERK THE P-38J!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[dtango]

Sorry guys - posted in the wrong thread!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[VonMessa]

Just curious to see how a squad of +/- 20 members that fly Luftwaffe exclusively in the MA will effect these numbers.

We also rarely change countries, and ENY is not a factor if you are fond of a 190 A8   .

A quick estimate for fighter time would be about 325 (+/-) hours per tour  (all pilots combined) average in German Iron only.

I wonder if this would affect any projected results.

I like the idea for one reason.

It will push people out of aircraft that are most commonly flown and into new rides when they refuse to switch teams when the ENY limiter kicks in.  That's what ENY means to me.

I don't really care about perk points.  So that argument does not affect me.  Also I have no qualms switching teams to avoid ENY problems (which neither of my rides suffer from currently anyways).

Anax's concept seems solid to me and I'm fairly sure I made a post a while ago asking about a system very similar to what he is proposing.  And I'm supporting this new system even though it would probably have me switching teams more often when first implemented since my main rides are the Ki-84 (best plane in the set) or the P-38J (my favorite plane to spread parts upon the cartoon arena with).

Also, all this fuss over the P38's makes me happy.  PERK THE P-38J!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

I don't think it would affect what we fly due to the nature of our SOP for aircraft choice in the MA, but I can see what you mean   

[BnZs]

No changes except:
152 to 10-12 eny
47N to 8-10
...

you guys are getting stuck on finding a perfect formula, when in the mean time it's good enough to adjust a couple of the most obvious flaws, to within 5 points of what they ought to be. And you dont need stats to do this.. just fly and fight against all the planes in the planeset, enough.

Moot, I largely agree, also the 109K and G14 and the Yak9U deserve higher ENY. But apparently "ad hoc and subjective judgments" are right out. :-)