Question for Pyro

[combat23]

I wonder about the armor being an option? On the assembly line maybe but I doubt it at the field level. The A8 was supposed to be a bomber killer>(is this correct?) If so the pilot's would want all the armor they could get. Nothing like a head on pass at several hundred B17's to make you believe in armor.

For fighting fighters what we need ,IMHO, is another version of the 190. like A5 or maybe the dora?  

see ya on line

[juzz]

I think only the "Sturm" units used the R7 and R8 versions?

In a regular fighter unit this would be the last thing you want; 311kg of armour that slows you down and makes your plane much more vulnerable to Allied fighters.

Btw: The armour was used to allow the Luftwaffe fighters to resume attacks from the rear of bomber formations, as it took considerable skill to line up for a HO attack and gunnery was difficult with the high closure rate, leading to poorer results than attacking from the rear could provide.

[weretiger]

note for the A6
I have seen higher weight this why i am not sure of the weigth ...... the on i gave is a A5 like plane (wich the production plan says it was like but again... with 2 mg 151 + 140 rnd in the outer position instead of the 2 mg ff.

for the A8 and A7
this is what i beleive
A7 and A8 used both the F600 engine block.
however, i have two production sheet one from the 29/3/44 and one from the 10/10/44
The one from the 29/3/44 from the A3 to the A8. this is the same nose armor.
on the 10/10/44 that weight has increased.

i beleive that A7 and early A8 were around 8700 lg about 4 T (speed of the a reduce by about 3 mph).
Somewher between end of march and that armour increased plus the back tank to give a A8 around 4.3 T.
and the max speed around 21 k is around 400 mph

As for the engine it is strange the Td num 284 state that in july the that f600 (BMW801 D2) was to fitted with the power increase (C3 injection in the blower)
this reports make a difference between that dispositve and the TU with is also equiped of that device.
Du the bleeding of the airline of the blower wich is part of the injection dispositive
the max speed was about 408 @ 19 K.
for a BMW801.

As for the Mw 50, I can not say at one. using it was possible. i can not make my mind wether it used it or not...

GM1. it is higly probale.

[SIFTER]

Hey Pyro,
I checked Heinz Nowarra's book (1965) on the 190.This is another source taken right from Focke-Wulf's files.(I believe this to be the best overall book on the 190.) I think it would be a good idea to add the extra power for the increased supercharger setting but not the GM1. The prototype test for the larger wing (218 sq feet) with GM1 had no existing data. Even the three prototype A-8's with the 801 TS didn't complete there tests until August/'44 for high altitude improvement of the A-8. Giving creedence to the fact that GM1 was just not used in the 190 A-8 with the 801D. This date gets into the time frame for the 190D anyway. Making the 190 A-8 GM1 setup a waste of time for AH.
If it wasn't a modification used commonly on the aircraft,I feel it shouldn't be used. I fly the 190 all the time but, I still want it to be historically real!
WEREtigger the name is Sifter  

[weretiger]

dam, I am sorry sifter.......
lets put that on the fact that i am french and i can not speack english properly.

The trouble about Gm1 is that i have the speed  and fligth test for a A6 and a A8 (pro AIR40 151 and 152).
besides, it is referenced in several german documents (the manual for the A8 and a recapitualtive document about the weigth of the fw according to the produced version and Their equipement. The GM1 dispositive is stated there (for the A6 A7 and A8). There is some combact reports (not very reliable but...). A A8 with a BMW801 TU captured (deleivered to in the UK by a deserter ferry pilot) in late august had the GM1 dispositive installed (but no GM1 fuel) as well as the as petrol injection(air40 152).
All in all that is what make me beleive it was used operationaly. we really need a (german) unit report to be absolutly positive
but....

Before i read your first post i was doubting that the MW50 was used (i have seen the test but, it is never really mentioned as opposed to the GM1) and i thought that the petrol injection was mistaken for it (special emmergency power, it is described in the TR284 that you mentionned in your first post). After all it has the same effects.
So here i was quite happy, but you pointed something to me.
In the report TR284 they describe how the rear seat tank can be replaced by the MW50 tank the 118 and 140 liters. Why would it be mentionned it if was not to be used or could still be used?.
As well that petrol injection was installed on the bmw801 D2 from jully onwards and I have an other german document (january 45), from focke wulf stating that the they needed a new pump for the MW50 to work on the FW 190
(engine TU, TH and TS). They need that new pump because the old MW50 dispositive is not good enough any more and could not be used.
I though they were referencing a high presure MW50 but it seems more likely that they were referencing MW50 injection in addition to the petrol injection dipositive. and that would explain why FW mentioned that could not used  D9 MW50 dispositive wich is using the same bleeding of the airline to inject petrol in the blower in emmergency power (the use of the MW50 on D9 is called special emmergency power)air40 152.
All those refrence make me think that it is very possible that the MW50 was in fact used
especially before the "petrol dispositive).

Note that those paper have been made public in the PRO,Kew UK since only 1972.

That being said it would be nice to have a form of under_the_critical_altitude power boosting for the FW190 since we can prove that the system was installed on standard engines from jully. May be a speed of 400 mph @ 21 k for the A8 in any case....:-).

Ps pyro would it be possible to post orginal document somewhere on the AH site (if there is no hidden copyright from the archive that is....:-)).

[weretiger]

well, funked (i hope i have the names rigth this time)
for the armor
the a8 r7 and r8 has a reinorced armour
normal armour
+
triangular side paned of the wind screen (and the bit below that)
engine-side of the  instrument panel and the part in front of the instrument panel)
top, front and botom of the ammo for the mk 108
this what i call strum armor.

there was as well extra plate that you could had on the side of the cannopy and the side of the fusselage.
this is what i called extra armour (i thing the proper term is panzerplaten but...)

 

[wells]

A quote from DocDoom on the WW2 Online board...

 

The Sturmbock ("battering ram") Fw190s
                         were A-8 varients (for the most part)
                         officially designated "R8" and had the outer
                         wing MG151/20 2cm cannons replaced with
                         Mk103 or Mk108 3cm cannons. They carried
                         extra armour along the leading edges of
                         the wing, around the ammo boxes (30mm
                         mine shells) and around the cockpit,
                         including armoured side glass for the
                         canopy, although the extra armour varied a
                         lot from plane to plane. Some did not have
                         as much as others, it was all field fitted
                         and depended on availability and pilot
                         preferance. Some higher ranked Sturmbock
                         pilots prefered the less weight as these
                         aircraft were VERY disadvantaged against
                         escort fighters with the extra 800 pounds or
                         so they carried.

                         Pilots swore an oath upon joining the
                         Sturmgruppe :

                         "We swear to fight in defence of the Reich
                         true to the principles and rules of
                         engagement of the Sturmgruppe. We know
                         that, as pilots of the Sturmgruppe, we are
                         called upon in a special way to protect and
                         defend to the utmost of our ability the
                         population of our homeland.

                         We undertake that, on every sortie
                         resulting in contact with four-engined
                         bombers, we shall press home the attack to
                         the shortest possible range, and - if
                         unsuccessful in shooting down the enemy
                         by gunfire - we shall destroy him by
                         ramming."

                         After this oath was taken the pilot received
                         a "whites of their eyes" insignia to sew on
                         his leather flight jacket, which was two
                         eyeballs rather like the "Moon" logo of the
                         Moon Racing Company of the 60's (for all
                         you hot rodders out there  )

                         In practice, relatively few had to resot to
                         ramming the bombers, and of those that
                         did more than 50% are believed to have
                         successfully bailed out just prior to impact.

                         The most common form of attack for the
                         Rammjager, unlike the pure fighter varients
                         of their comrades ... was a slow overtaking
                         approach from the rear, relying on the extra
                         armour to protect them while affording
                         them the longest and easiest firing set up
                         and execution. This form of attack was
                         committed at Staffel strength in an
                         arrowhead formation and holding fire until
                         inside 300 yards. A single squadron of
                         bombers would be targeted, usually the
                         one where the "boxed" defensive fire was
                         at its weakest.

                         After fantastic initial success with these
                         tactics, the USAF response was to sweep
                         ahead of the bomber stream with P-51's
                         (and often P-47's) to break up the Sturm
                         formations and then shoot them down
                         (where possible without "leaving" the
                         bombers) as they had little manouvring
                         ability versus the American fighters. Even
                         just breaking up the massed arrowhead
                         attack formation was sufficient to disable
                         the attack on the bombers in most cases,
                         from being effective or even possible.

[bod]

I got some info that Oberleutnant Oscar Romm wrote. He flew 190 from 1942 and til the end of the war (92 victories).

Prior to his 190-D9 experience (february 45)he flew with IV/JG3.

About the 190-D9 he writes that it had a new gyrostabilized gunsight EZ42. He could "hit the cockpit of russian DB-7 from a great distance" (a great improvement from earlier sigths in other words).

But the best thing he writes, is that the 190-D had MW 50, that not only boosted engine power but also reduced engine temperature. Obviosly he had not used MW-50 on his previous planes (190A2-190A8 i presume).


Bod