Author Topic: Citabria P38 H, J, L info (Warning pics) (Read 757 times)

214thCavalier · « **on:** January 14, 2001, 06:01:00 PM »

Ok hope some of it is new and of use but i doubt it has not been seen here before.

I cannot remember where i got these from so theres a good possibility you have all seen them elsewhere.

Sorry about the size but because the original was not very good quality if i tried to compress anymore it was in danger of becoming unreadable.

Just checked Zeno's has the L chart i believe but not the others, they do have some other stuff relating to engine operation etc here http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/More_P-38_Stuff.html

They have similar info relating to the P47 and P51 which was the other stuff i had.
So go check them out at
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/main.html look under the More neat stuff heading.

The more i think about it i think i got these pics by following some links to other sites from Zenos about 2 or 3 years ago.

[This message has been edited by 214thCavalier (edited 01-14-2001).]

Citabria · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2001, 06:15:00 PM »

great stuff!

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-14-2001).]

Citabria · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2001, 06:40:00 PM »

very good charts
they give climb performance using military power of 3000rpm 54"Hg. 1475hp.
with full internal fuel normal ammo,
pilot etc at 17,400lbs

the P-38J and P-38L engines both produce
1475hp at 3000rpm and 54"hg

the difference between the two is in WEP.

the P-38J produces 1600hp per engine at 3000rpm 60"hg
while the P-38L produces 1725hp per engine at 3000rpm and 60"hg
( a difference between mil power and wep of 500HP)

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-14-2001).]

Citabria · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2001, 06:59:00 PM »

P-38L in AH performance at low altitude is
about 150fpm slower than the charts for
normal combat load 17,400lbs and gets a
bit further off as altitude increases

climb performance in AH w 100% fuel normal ammo mil power:

3000fpm at 5k 01:35 to this alt 3200 charted
2857fpm at 10k 03:16 to this alt 3100 charted
2609fpm at 15k 05:05 to this alt 2900 charted
2069fpm at 25k 09:22 to this alt 2400 charted

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-14-2001).]

214thCavalier · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2001, 07:33:00 PM »

Hmm that seems to put AH a considerable way off on the climb rates Cit, i presume you also tested AH by altering the climb speed as per the charts at each altitude ?
Silly question really cos i would bet you did

Jimdandy · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2001, 07:39:00 PM »

I like it. What I feel is an already excellent plane on AH only gets better.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-14-2001).]

Citabria · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2001, 08:09:00 PM »

the chart looks like it was calculated off
an early model P-38L powered by allison
V-1710f-30 engines rated at 1600hp

The two Allison V-1710F-30 V-12s
delivered 1,475 HP military and takeoff ratings at 3,000 RPM, or 1,612 HP maximum
rating at 3,000 RPM and 60 in. of manifold
pressure. the later model V-1710f-30
engines are described as delivering up to
1,725 HP WEP rating. The engines required
100 octane or higher rated fuel, and had 13 USG oil capacity.
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-3.html

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-14-2001).]

niklas · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2001, 04:56:00 AM »

Cit, i hope you read the following line of the chart:

fuel includes warm-up and takeoff allowance.

The zeno flight operation chart mentions that 50gal. fuel are not avaiable inflight.

You can also see in the P38L climb chart here that in 5k the P38L alreay has burned 59gal, in 10k 69gal. that means the P38L started the climb with ~50gal less. It won´t make much difference, but a little bit....

How much fuel can the L carry? 410gal? 50gal less would mean they started the climb tests with 88%fuel

niklas

bolillo_loco · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2001, 07:56:00 PM »

17,400lb weight for the P-38J/L is with the 50 gal fuel deduction for take off and warm up. 17,699lbs is with 410 gal fuel and pilot full internal capacities for fuel, oil, ammo etc.

take a look at the rates of climb for P-47D, F4U-1, and P-51D and you will see they are 2,000fpm for the P-47D, looks like 2,300fpm for the F4U-1-FG-1, and what looks like either 2,400fpm or 2,600fpm for the P-51D under the same conditions as the 3,200fpm of the P-38J/L ie military power.

Citabria · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2001, 11:00:00 PM »

17,699lbs for 416gal fuel, pilot, 23gal oil, guns, 2000rds 50cal, 150rds 20mm?

correct?

need to know if armament(4 50cal 1 20mm) is included in 12,780lbs empty weight.

how much amunition weighs too would be nice to know

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-15-2001).]

bolillo_loco · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2001, 05:52:00 AM »

12,780lbs empty weight P-38J
trapped oil 60.0 lbs
trapped fuel 20.0 lbs
50 cal install (4) 425.0 lbs
20 mm install (1) 196.0 lbs
gun sight 3.0 lbs
gun camera 12.0 lbs
provision for drop tanks 56.0 lbs
armor/bullet proof glass 245.0 lbs
oxegen equipment 303.0 lbs
basic weight 14,100 lbs

pilot 200.0 lbs
useable oil 195.0 lbs
gun ammo 50 cal 622.0 lbs 2,000 rds.
20 mm ammo 92.0 lbs 150 rds
fuel internal leading edge 690.0 lbs
fuel internal front 720.0 lbs
fuel internal rear 1,080.0 lbs
gross weight 17,699.0 lbs

page 145 americas hundred thousand. seen the 17,699 lb figure in several other books also. it seems to be agreeded on and if its wrong it has to be close to what it really did weigh. also there isnt much difference on the J/L 12,780 for the J and 12,800 for the L. they are probably so close in weight that most books dont differenciate between the two.

214thCavalier · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2001, 05:56:00 AM »

From a weight and balance chart i have for the P47 they allowed 200lbs for the pilot including parachute, guess the average American has put on a bit of weight since then

but i reckon they would be likely to use the same figure.
They show 6 x .50 cals as weighing 430lb so thats gonna be about 71.6 lbs per gun, assuming the .50's were all the same on diff aircraft.
And goes on to list weights of gunsights, oxygen, flares, weights of the individual fuel and drop tanks and something i never considered before the extra 9.6 US Gal of oil tank capacity to keep the motor running long enough to burn the extra fuel if carrying a drop tank.
Also shows 1800 rds of .50 cal ammo weighing in at 540lbs which equates to 0.3 lbs per round.
Data from P47 chart so best to consider these as ball park figures i guess.

Doh, Bollilo you just beat me with that info or i would not have bothered

[This message has been edited by 214thCavalier (edited 01-16-2001).]

niklas · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2001, 07:24:00 AM »

Quote

pilot 200.0 lbs

AHHHAAA!!

now i know why the performance of the allied AC in the charts is so good. Germans calculated with 100kg=220.0 lbs weight for the pilot!!!!

niklas

F4UDOA · « **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2001, 09:49:00 AM »

Gents,

The questions I have about the weight of the P-38L are directly because of the data that is in America's Hundred Thousand on the P-38J.

Question if the P-38J weighted 17,699lbs then how can the P-38L weight the same? From AHT, the P-38L incorporated

1. Automatic power plant controls.
2. Uprated engines.
3. Flush landing light in port wing.
4. Tail warning radar added. (What's that??)
5. New Turbo regulator

Then the P-38L-5

1. Underwing rocket launcher system. 5 rockets per side.

Also what version of the P-38J is that weight breakdown from?

bolillo_loco · « **Reply #14 on:** January 16, 2001, 07:20:00 PM »

So the germans caculated that the pilot was heavier 100kg (about 220 lbs) vs 200lbs for the americans. I would have to imagine that thats because the german planes got shot at more so the german pilot was forced to wear bullet proof vests and the like and that would account for the extra 20lbs, hehe wink wink.

I do not know why the weights of the P-38H, J, and L (empty were so close) two warbirds tech series books I have made mention that with the later J and L series benifited from the elimination of systems and simplification of systems (one being automated engine cooling and contro systems) maybe this offset the added weight of the additional systems. late L series also has fire extinguising systems for the engines.

12,380lbs empty 38H 12,780 empty 38J and 12,800 empty 38L.

the above data for the 38J I posted does not make any mention of what L-0 model it was. moving the landing light from the nose landing gear area to the wing cant have added any significant weight if any. dido with the new turbo regulators. were the new turbo regulators heavier or lighter than the old ones? if so they are not very big to begin with. simplifacation of B/P glass and canopy and elimination of inflight gun charging system and turbo innercoolers in wings could have been another reason why added equipment of the 38J/L didnt affect the addition of more than 400lbs over the 12,380lbs weight of the 38H.