Spixteen Wish...(Just for a month)

[Vudak]

I have the odd notion that perks/ENY should be about the actual value the plane brings to its operator, not its name recognition among noobs or its "coolness factor" amongst vets.

I think it has much to do with the value it brings to the base-taker, hence why the P-47N (not so great fighter, but great ord donkey) has such a low ENY and why the 109K4 (great fighter, not so great or donkey) has a relatively high one.

There are probably many other factors too, which is why I start confusing myself when I start thinking about ENY. 

[Anaxogoras]

Maybe so, Vudak, but any attempt to interpret a scheme from the current ENY values will end in failure.  They are inconsistent and lack organizing principles.

[Vudak]

Maybe so, Vudak, but any attempt to interpret a scheme from the current ENY values will end in failure.  They are inconsistent and lack organizing principles.

Apparently they are open for change, considering that many models have had changes made to their ENY over the years.  If you can come up with a better way to organize it, by all means give it a shot.  If it's good, it might be implemented.

Just a few suggestions:

1. Take into account ordinance capacity (include cannon in this ex. 110)
2. Take into account country-fight-balance (what planes would be very tough to fight when heavily outnumbered)
3. Take into account the need to have certain models usually available for sales purposes (P-51B)

[detch01]

5 posts and the first utterly off-target post appears. Internet entertainment at it's finest - HT I withdraw the request, I've already had my fun 


Cheers,
asw

[Karnak]

Look, maybe I'm not making myself clear. I don't CARE if a SpitXVI is taken up 99% of the time by a blundering noobs who barely maintain a 1:1 k/d or if the P-38J is flown 99% of the time by experts racking up k/d's and k/s's of 5+. I don't CARE if the Spit16 or any other plane gets 75% of kills/deaths or .75% per tour. The only thing I see as important about a free plane is how it stacks up to the other free planes as a fighter. I have the odd notion that perks/ENY should be about the actual value the plane brings to its operator, not its name recognition among noobs or its "coolness factor" amongst vets.

So if you think I'm calling you a liar when you mention stats about usage or k/d, don't worry, I'm not. I just don't see them as reliable indicators of anything important.

That is an absurd metric to go by.  You'd end up with a huge mass of chaos using that method.  Theory cannot trump reality or you wind up with hangar queen perk planes and free planes getting 20% of a tour's kills.  That is not a good way to design a game.

[Anaxogoras]

Apparently they are open for change, considering that many models have had changes made to their ENY over the years.  If you can come up with a better way to organize it, by all means give it a shot.  If it's good, it might be implemented.

Just a few suggestions:

1. Take into account ordinance capacity (include cannon in this ex. 110)
2. Take into account country-fight-balance (what planes would be very tough to fight when heavily outnumbered)
3. Take into account the need to have certain models usually available for sales purposes (P-51B)

Check out this thread:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264759.0.html

It's quite easy to come up with ENY values from the charts that you'll see there.  You can emphasize or decrease the importance of different categories with a multiplier.

[olskool2]

I have never seen a tour in which the F4U-1C had a higher K/D ratio than the F4U-4.  I'll grant it is possible, but it is not the usual standing.

Not going to comment on individual tour stats, but in 2007 and 2008 the 1C beat the -4.

That is nothing like proof of your claim, in fact it is evidence of the opposite.   The P-38J has a better K/D ratio because it is used by a smaller number of dedicated P-38 fans rather than by the masses who just grab the P-38 with the "highest" letter when they want a P-38, or worse, use one as a cruise missle.

It is proof that the use of the plane by the average pilot of that plane is a variable that isn't (or can't be) taken into account when doing the math.

[BnZs]

That is an absurd metric to go by.  You'd end up with a huge mass of chaos using that method.  Theory cannot trump reality or you wind up with hangar queen perk planes and free planes getting 20% of a tour's kills.  That is not a good way to design a game.

You are working under the assumption that going by simple numerical popularity and k/d numbers as put up by the whole MA population will more rationally reflect a plane's abilities as a fighter than making an honest attempt to compare performance (And by "performance", I mean not just speed and climb, but the whole range of maneuverability, firepower, handling, etc.) to other planes. This is a notion I reject, because I believe it has been demonstrated countless times that MA plane choices and success are not closely tied to a plane's worth. The D9 is at least as good as the Pony in the b'n'z role, yet remains far less popular. The Ki-84 is the non-Spitfire most similar to the Spixteen, yet remains far below that plane in popularity...the list goes on.

You are also working under the assumption that I CARE if if a given free ride is getting 20% of kills...I really don't if that ride is not clearly superior as a fighter to the free planes around it.

BTW...a *huge* problem with % of kills is that the masses love big gun packages to a point that is irrational, while potentially ignoring other more important factors. There is also the vulching problem...there is literally no telling what % of the C-Hog's total kills for instance come from nothing other than vulchs during CV attacks, which doesn't really reflect its worth as a fighter at all.

[BrownBaron]

Lol...a year of playing and i have a noob question...

Whats BnZing?

[Karnak]

You are working under the assumption that going by simple numerical popularity and k/d numbers as put up by the whole MA population will more rationally reflect a plane's abilities as a fighter than making an honest attempt to compare performance (And by "performance", I mean not just speed and climb, but the whole range of maneuverability, firepower, handling, etc.) to other planes. This is a notion I reject, because I believe it has been demonstrated countless times that MA plane choices and success are not closely tied to a plane's worth. The D9 is at least as good as the Pony in the b'n'z role, yet remains far less popular. The Ki-84 is the non-Spitfire most similar to the Spixteen, yet remains far below that plane in popularity...the list goes on.

I find it funny that I, one of the rare political "Liberals" involved in this hobby, am arguing that the market (player base) is the most effective gauge of aircraft value and you are arguing that it needs to be mandated by HTC (the government in this case), not that I know your actual political leanings.  Just a funny thought.

You are also working under the assumption that I CARE if if a given free ride is getting 20% of kills...I really don't if that ride is not clearly superior as a fighter to the free planes around it.

No, I am not working under that assumption.  I know exactly where you are coming from.  I am saying you are flat out wrong though.

BTW...a *huge* problem with % of kills is that the masses love big gun packages to a point that is irrational, while potentially ignoring other more important factors. There is also the vulching problem...there is literally no telling what % of the C-Hog's total kills for instance come from nothing other than vulchs during CV attacks, which doesn't really reflect its worth as a fighter at all.

I don't think it is irrational, nor is it absolute.  Yes, the N1K2-J has a good package, but it brings a lot of other things to the table too.  The Fw190A-8 and Mosquito Mk VI have excellent gun packages and they see very low usage because of other performance shortcomings.  The P-51D (yes, yes, I know, "Greatest fighter ever", "Best fighter of the war", "Its the Mustang!" hype) sees very high usage despite being armed with the standard American six 50s in the wings armament.  The fact is, most fighters in WWII had cannons for a reason and the fact that most of the popular fighters have cannons is hardly a shock.

[Vudak]

Lol...a year of playing and i have a noob question...

Whats BnZing?

It stands for Boom and Zoom.

Here's the link to the Training Corps write up on it:

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/bnz/bnz.htm

[BnZs]

I find it funny that I, one of the rare political "Liberals" involved in this hobby, am arguing that the market (player base) is the most effective gauge of aircraft value and you are arguing that it needs to be mandated by HTC (the government in this case), not that I know your actual political leanings.  Just a funny thought.

Ummm...if I were to apply my political principles to this game I'd say unperk everything and let the chips fall where they may. No doubt about it, perking the Tempest, C-Hog, F4U-4, 262, and 163 IS basically propping up inferior models and taking away a large amount of the market share their superiority would otherwise earn. Such would also be the case if the Spixteen or La7 were perked. In society, not acceptable, in a privately-owned game for amusement, acceptable.

No, I am not working under that assumption.  I know exactly where you are coming from.  I am saying you are flat out wrong though.

Welp, it looks like you are unconcerned that the SpitXVI and La7 are flat-out superior as fighters to a huge chunk of the LW planeset. I am unconcerned that the HurriIIc gets 35% of kills and deaths in EW because virtually every other EW plane has an exploitable advantage which can be turned against it by a competent pilot. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

I don't think it is irrational, nor is it absolute.  Yes, the N1K2-J has a good package, but it brings a lot of other things to the table too.  The Fw190A-8 and Mosquito Mk VI have excellent gun packages and they see very low usage because of other performance shortcomings.  The P-51D (yes, yes, I know, "Greatest fighter ever", "Best fighter of the war", "Its the Mustang!" hype) sees very high usage despite being armed with the standard American six 50s in the wings armament.  The fact is, most fighters in WWII had cannons for a reason and the fact that most of the popular fighters have cannons is hardly a shock.

IIRC, the 190 A-8 actually sees about as much use as the superior 190-A5, D9, or 109 K-4.

People may be ignorant about the Mossie Karnak. I think add 10-20 MPH to the Mossie's top speed and it would be one popular MA bird anyway.