Author Topic: Mirrors?  (Read 1472 times)

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2009, 09:06:59 AM »
I routinely get my VStab blown off! :lol. Well in that case, we would be forced to use ailerons to counteract engine torque. But since ailerons naturally produce some yaw rate, the aircraft would rapidly acquire a large horizontal AoA. This is assuming the aircraft is geometrically symmetric along the plane defined by the VStab. If not, any asymmetries would be enhanced and would probably also contribute to the yaw. The result: a flat spin, with some rolling motion due to torque. I think that agrees pretty well with combat experience in AH.

I agree. However, my recollection of aircraft performance said there is a significant stability drivative that we dubbed "the weathervane effect". It effectively minimizes your sideslip. While the vertstab is doubtless a big contributor to that effect, I am also very sure that on a/c of the type we fly, the aft fuselage is also a significant contributor.

I just wonder if, given some trace of d(Yaw moment, call it Z)/d(yaw angle, call it phi) and the fact that at some phi we'd have a yaw contribution from that effect that was proportional to that coeff and to the square of velocity that the flat spin you posit might be a major issue at low speed but much, much less of a problem if we've got a little smash-ola? It's hard to say because the induced drag diff due to ailerons left to right will also be higher.

I'd further posit that a relatively slab-sided bird like the 51 would have a steeper slope/higher Cz w/r phi at all phi  than something with a rounder/narrower rear fuselage like a d-9.

I was also considering the case where we're sharply banked at the time of the separation event. This looks like a decent analog to  out horistab discusion only there's less possible lift forward - just the fuselage contribution and whatever vertical component the wings are producing. Clearly here, we'd be negative cambered on the vertstab to try to keep the nose up and at a very high Cl ergo alpha on the wings to attempt to keep from losing lots of alt. Blow the vertstab off and do we now also yaw nose up? I think it likely - especially given the attenuated nose-down pitch moment of the wings in that plane (horizontal w/r ground).

One other thought - with the canard, if we blow the horistab off it seems to me the center of lift would shift further aft. That looks like it might pitch nose down - a safer failure mode.

Anyway, that's my thought on this "Mirrors" issue. Best to keep 'em on the airplane because strange things can happen when they get shot off.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 09:15:50 AM by PJ_Godzilla »
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Bear76

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2009, 04:55:30 PM »
Mirrors?  Yes, I'm tired of hanging my pine tree air freshener and fuzzy dice on my monitor :cheers:

Offline Nwbie

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2009, 06:01:59 PM »
Mirrors?

I rarely look at the gauges, let alone mirrors.... and don't even bring up that you can use flaps too

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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2009, 06:09:15 PM »
Heh, sign up for a game, get part of an aero education.

Right, I would expect the fuselage to act as one big stabilizer. Not sure how much it would help with the VStab loss though. At least with AH physics, it doesn't help very much, even at high speeds.

As far as what happens with a banked turn and the VStab gets blown off? That seems a bit beyond me and my simple examples :huh. But, from AH experience:

In a turn, the aircraft will naturally have some sideslip, i.e. yaw AoA with nose higher than velocity vector. If you are applying top rudder, this will only enhance the yaw AoA. With all this, it seems that the rudder is opposing gravity's tendency to bring the nose down. Shoot of the VStab and shouldn't gravity bring the nose downwards?

Canards: yeah, that seems right to me. Why is nose down a safer attitude though? I haven't ever thought about bailing out of a real aircraft that has lost its HStabs after all.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 06:58:42 PM by boomerlu »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Mirrors?
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2009, 09:40:26 AM »
Heh, sign up for a game, get part of an aero education.

Right, I would expect the fuselage to act as one big stabilizer. Not sure how much it would help with the VStab loss though. At least with AH physics, it doesn't help very much, even at high speeds.

As far as what happens with a banked turn and the VStab gets blown off? That seems a bit beyond me and my simple examples :huh. But, from AH experience:

In a turn, the aircraft will naturally have some sideslip, i.e. yaw AoA with nose higher than velocity vector. If you are applying top rudder, this will only enhance the yaw AoA. With all this, it seems that the rudder is opposing gravity's tendency to bring the nose down. Shoot of the VStab and shouldn't gravity bring the nose downwards

Canards: yeah, that seems right to me. Why is nose down a safer attitude though? I haven't ever thought about bailing out of a real aircraft that has lost its HStabs after all.

On the banked example, sure, but you could say that about the horizontal case as well, right? It all depends on where the CG is relative to the wing lift vector. That will also determine whether the horistab or vertstab, in the case we're talking about, is unloaded or lifting positively or negatively.

As posited, though, yes, I agree with you. Usually, I have to hold the nose up by deflecting rudder to put the tail down in a bank. This is a little counterintuitive to me, though, given HTC's talk on how the CG is usually aft of the forward center of lift on AHII a/c.

I'd say nose-down is a better failure because you won't stall. Because of that, you'll retain some airflow and controllability. Consider dreamchild's assertion that he can turn level by using flaps in his FM2 - even sans tail. I'd expect some limited pitch control with flaps in the canard, provided some airflow over the wings.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.