Author Topic: Question for Mr Tony Williams (Read 417 times)

Hristo · « **on:** June 11, 2001, 07:01:00 AM »

Do you know anything about MK 108 with increased RoF ? There was some info about it here long time ago. Apparently, RoF went up to 800 rounds per minute.

When was it introduced ? How many of them ? What planes recieved it ?

P.S.
Any info on MK 103 fitted into 109K ?

juzz · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2001, 07:10:00 AM »

Regarding MK 103, see this article: http://www.bf109.com/twgunsarticle.html

Tony Williams · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2001, 02:52:00 PM »

This is usually referred to as the MK 108A or MK 108 nA (presumably neuer Art, or new type). It was pushed up to around 900 rpm, but was too late to see action.

Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

Hristo · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2001, 04:08:00 PM »

Thanks, I'd give you 6th star if you answered that all were retrofitted to 109s

hazed- · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2001, 08:15:00 PM »

what about the 15mm MG151? it was effective up to 600 meters wheresas MG151/20 is quoted as 400meters effective? was this used in combat? and can we have it?
these were quoted in same book:
MK 103 3cm 800 meters.
MK 108 3cm 400 metres.
BK 5 5cm 800 metres.

'veiw from the cockpit' adolf galland

are AH convergence in meters?

juzz · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2001, 09:33:00 PM »

convergence and icons are in yards, 1 yard = 0.915 metres

Oh, and MG 151 was fitted to Me 109F-2 as engine gun.

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: juzz ]

Tony Williams · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2001, 01:28:00 AM »

The 15mm MG 151 was a bit of an oddity. Compared with the .50 Browning or 12.7mm Beresin, it was significantly more powerful (although heavier and a bit slower-firing) and fired HE as well as AP ammunition (including a tungsten-cored AP shot which was reserved for attacking tanks, and could penetrate over 40mm armour). However, it only had a small fraction of the HE content of the 20mm M-Geschoss (there was a 15mm M-Geschoss developed, but I have no proof that it was ever used).

So, the high velocity meant that it could certainly score hits and penetrate armour more easily than the 20mm version, but would generally do less damage. The real problem was that the Bf 109 could only carry one of them. A battery of four would be a different matter.......

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm

hazed- · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2001, 05:44:00 PM »

tony i found this in the book i mentioned earlier, I wonderedif it might be info of interest to you:

aircraft equiptment of various Zerstorer Geschwader

'I/Z.G.26 - Bf.110 with 4 x 2cm or 2x3cm(MK108) and 4x21cm RP.From May 1944,Me.410 with 4 x 2cm
II/Z.G.26 - Me.410, with 4 x 2cm., from early 1944 wth 5cm cannon (BK 5), and 2 x 15mm.'

the next part is a little strange in that the roman numerals appear to be a missprint but i assume it 'should' read I-III for ZG76:

'I/Z.G.1 Bf110 with 4 x 2 cm, or 2 x 3cm (MK108) and 4 x 21cm RP.
I/Z.G.76 - Bf.110 with 4 x 2cm, or 2 x 3cm (MK103) and 2 x 15mm.
I/Z.G.76 - Bf.110 with GM1 - 2 x 2cm, 1 x 37mm (Flak 18) and 2 x 21cm RP. from May 1944, Me.410 with 2cm and 3cm (MK 103) mixed.
I/Z.G.76 - like I/Z.G.76.'

looks like it should read I/Z.G.76 then II/Z.G.76 then III/Z.G.76 but this is how it appears in the book.
As you can see it state from may 1944 so surely the MK 103 and the MG151 15mm both saw action?

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

Tony Williams · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2001, 02:13:00 AM »

Certainly the 15mm MG 151 and MK 103 were both used, sometime in curious circumstances. We know that a few early Bf 109F carried the 15mm but after that most guns were built in 20mm. Still, the 15mm keeps popping up from time to time, such as the example you mentioned (I have also seen it in the Me 210/410), in a seaplane (I forget which) and in the Do 335.

The Mk 103 was used in some Me 210/410 also and I think some He 219, but not in much else for air-to-air work (although planned for Do 335 and Ta 152C plus an Me 262 variant) - I think most were fitted to Hs 129 for tank-busting.

There was some logic in combining 15mm MG 151 and MK 103, as both were high-velocity guns with a reasonable trajectory match.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm

hazed- · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2001, 08:53:00 AM »

so if we had an aircraft in AH with MK 103 in the wings and MG 151/15mm in the fuselage it should have better ballistics and similar trajectory to the super hispanos? and seeing as the MK 103 is 30mm it should cause much more damage right?

finally an LW aircraft which is as easy to hit with as the dreaded F4Uc

HTC give us these guns!!! PLZ

juzz · « **Reply #10 on:** June 14, 2001, 12:38:00 AM »

He 115C-1 was the seaplane with a fixed MG 151 under the nose.

Multiple MG 151 AND MK 103 all in one nose, that would be super-sweeet!

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #11 on:** June 14, 2001, 04:03:00 AM »

Hazed, you should consider the tremendous difference in weight that will, for sure, affect negatively the performance of any aircraft:
151/20: 42 Kg
Mk108: 60 Kg
Mk103: 141 Kg
And the very low ROF of the Mk103. And a last factor, the recoil effects should be really noticeable.

IMO, this gun would be an impressive buff hunter, but no much more than that.

Anyway, I WANT IT