For all you 109 nuts out there...

[thorsim]

well it could be that the by all accounts 109 required familiarity to fully exploit where as by all accounts the 190 was comparatively very new pilot friendly ...

the other possibility was that the USSR was no stranger to propaganda, and don't forget they were comparing the planes to yaks and laggs not juggs and 38s so the planes would appear comparatively less maneuverable than they would to their USAAF counterparts ...

it could also be that the 190 not having as great an altitude and climb advantage would just end up in the turn fights more than the well trained 109 pilot would, the latter exploiting altitude climb and speed in BnZ attacks since his plane gave him that luxury ...

[BnZs]

I find the idea that the 109 could only run "balls to the wall" for two minutes EXTREMELY fishy, since this directly contradicts operating instructions, and what I know about other WWII powerplants, which seem to have survived running balls-to-the-wall for extended periods quite successfully when nessecary.

When the 190A was introduced to the Western front, the SpitV was standard. Far slower, out-accelerated, out-climbed, badly-outrolled and out-dived by the 190. Its better turn would be of no consequence if the 190 pilots used the right tactics. Of course the 190 was a nightmare when first introduced in the West.

The 190As began appearing in the East somewhat later, and were often used in a fighter-bomber role that made them more vulnerable, and the Russians  quickly developed planes that could come close to, match, and finally exceed the Antons in performance, while far exceeding them in maneuver-a turning disadvantage DOES count if your opponent DOES stand a reasonable chance of being able to force you to engage. This accounts for the differing attitudes regarding the 190, East and West.

[Anaxogoras]

The quoted time probably meant Emergency Power with the radiator flaps closed.  Emergency Power with the radiator flaps open would likely yield a longer duration of power before over-heat.  In AH our liquid-cooled aircraft fly with the performance benefit of radiator flaps closed all of the time.

[pervert]

Interesting was reading up on the wiki WM page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW50 says it could be used for up to 10 minutes at a time with a 5 minute break in between? Any time I used this on 109s for a short period in IL-2 it wrecked my engine 

[Anaxogoras]

Interesting was reading up on the wiki WM page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW50 says it could be used for up to 10 minutes at a time with a 5 minute break in between? Any time I used this on 109s for a short period in IL-2 it wrecked my engine  

That's because you didn't drop your manifold pressure before you engaged it.  Drop to ~1.2 ata, engage MW50, then power up.  I learned this from a forum search at ubisoft.

[thorsim]

i sort of put the spitfire vs. 109 accounts during BOB in the same light. 

a plane that always shows up with the superior position, as the spitfire tended to do with their GCI,
has got to look pretty good in comparison no matter what the actual performance differences were.

i don't think the spitfire ever did as well in the west as it did in BOB, did it?

 

I find the idea that the 109 could only run "balls to the wall" for two minutes EXTREMELY fishy, since this directly contradicts operating instructions, and what I know about other WWII powerplants, which seem to have survived running balls-to-the-wall for extended periods quite successfully when nessecary.

When the 190A was introduced to the Western front, the SpitV was standard. Far slower, out-accelerated, out-climbed, badly-outrolled and out-dived by the 190. Its better turn would be of no consequence if the 190 pilots used the right tactics. Of course the 190 was a nightmare when first introduced in the West.

The 190As began appearing in the East somewhat later, and were often used in a fighter-bomber role that made them more vulnerable, and the Russians  quickly developed planes that could come close to, match, and finally exceed the Antons in performance, while far exceeding them in maneuver-a turning disadvantage DOES count if your opponent DOES stand a reasonable chance of being able to force you to engage. This accounts for the differing attitudes regarding the 190, East and West.

[Oldman731]

a plane that always shows up with the superior position, as the spitfire tended to do with their GCI,
has got to look pretty good in comparison no matter what the actual performance differences were.

i don't think the spitfire ever did as well in the west as it did in BOB, did it?

The British radar gave them the advantage of knowing (often, not always) where the Germans were going to strike.  It almost never gave them enough time to get to superior altitude in time to meet the raid, nor to amass a large force to oppose the raid.  Typically the Spitfires and Hurricanes were at an energy and numbers disadvantage.

- oldman

[HighGTrn]

I find myself googling 109 stuff all the time because of all the airplanes in WW2, I find the 109 most interesting.  This is weird coming from a pony and 38 driver here in the game.  Call it my closet fetish with the 109.

I really admire the plane and the men who flew them for many reasons.  There are so many facts about the 109 that are fascinating.  With all of the variants, battles they were involved in and the skills to which Luftwaffe pilots used them, every 109 story is interesting reading.  I would have given a right nut to have a god's eye view of the Battle of Britian.

I guess the biggest fascination I have with the plane is tactics and ACM the real pilots used vs. what we use here in our cartoon world.  In here, I don't see 109s using tactics that were utilized by the greats like Galland and Hartmann.  If I understand it right, they killed most of their quarry by using slashing and diving techniques.  In here, I see most 109 guys turning (a turn in the vertical is still a turn) with people.  For me, a 109 in AH seems like it is not very well suited for BnZ style tactics so endeared by real German pilots of WW2.  With its limited ammo, single cannon gun, it makes snapshots and deflection shooting required in a BnZ attack style very difficult.  I'm speaking from a perspective limited by my own shortcomings.  I'm sure there are many out there who can use the 109 in this style very effectively.

I often wonder if the Germans had the P-51 and their top ace met our top ace, who would walk away victorious?

[Saurdaukar]

I guess the biggest fascination I have with the plane is tactics and ACM the real pilots used vs. what we use here in our cartoon world.  In here, I don't see 109s using tactics that were utilized by the greats like Galland and Hartmann.  If I understand it right, they killed most of their quarry by using slashing and diving techniques. 

I think the primary reason for this is that, ignoring the reality v. simulation aspect, we've all got a huge experience advantage.

Yeah, I know, that sounds completely moronic, but think about it.  How many times have you died in AH?  A hundred?  A thousand?  Ten thousand?

They only got one life and, as a result, learning from a mistake (successfully bailing without injury) was a rare thing.

We learn from our mistakes constantly and adjust accordingly.

We are also fully aware of the performance capabilities of all aircraft in the game.  Such was most definitely not the case during the war.

In as far as tactics at a micro level, I think our "Mk II" eyeballs have a lot to do with that.  Every book/article/interview Ive read or seen dealing with the reality of WWII engagements is all about surprise.  Galland, Hartmann, Rall - they all say the same thing: 90% of the guys who got shot down never even saw it coming.  By contrast, we've got what equates to an IFF system.

[Motherland]

I guess the biggest fascination I have with the plane is tactics and ACM the real pilots used vs. what we use here in our cartoon world.  In here, I don't see 109s using tactics that were utilized by the greats like Galland and Hartmann.  If I understand it right, they killed most of their quarry by using slashing and diving techniques.  In here, I see most 109 guys turning (a turn in the vertical is still a turn) with people.  For me, a 109 in AH seems like it is not very well suited for BnZ style tactics so endeared by real German pilots of WW2.  With its limited ammo, single cannon gun, it makes snapshots and deflection shooting required in a BnZ attack style very difficult.  I'm speaking from a perspective limited by my own shortcomings.  I'm sure there are many out there who can use the 109 in this style very effectively.

This is just a person-to-person thing. Just as in Aces High, in real life different pilots tended to have different flying styles. Hartmann was a 'Boom and Zoomer'-- further than that, a 'picker'. In real life, just as in the game, boom and zooming and picking is generally the most effective way to rack up kills and (more importantly) survive. So it is natural that the highest scoring ace of all time would have subscribed to this style of flying.

That said, there are many famous Luftwaffe pilots who did not subscribe to this style, the most famous being Hans-Joachim Marseilles, who is often considered the best fighter pilot of the war, although his life was cut short in an accident when he had only 158 victories. Marseilles had a very aggressive fighting style and an uncanny shooting ability. I also recall seeing Walter Krupinski (197) and Gerhard Barkhorn (301), among others of course, described as very aggressive pilots, though I can't find those accounts now so I won't say out right that they were.

[Lusche]

If I understand it right, they killed most of their quarry by using slashing and diving techniques.  In here, I see most 109 guys turning (a turn in the vertical is still a turn) with people.  For me, a 109 in AH seems like it is not very well suited for BnZ style tactics so endeared by real German pilots of WW2.  With its limited ammo, single cannon gun, it makes snapshots and deflection shooting required in a BnZ attack style very difficult.  I'm speaking from a perspective limited by my own shortcomings.  I'm sure there are many out there who can use the 109 in this style very effectively.

In addition to what Sardaukar said, may I also emphasize the fact that the combat environment is very much different here from the real world.
Not only that,as already pointed out, most of us have way more experience and knowledge about the respective plane's capabilities. We don't have to fear death, we are flying in a much more chaotic combat environment, we almost totally lack flying & fighting discipline and unit cohesiveness. Some styles of fighting are even looked upon as "dweeby" - most WWII airforces quickly tossed any such thoughts overboard...

[BnZs]

It is clear that most of Hartmann's kills were a matter of seeing the other poor sod first, flying up his low six, and shooting him. This was the story of perhaps the majority of kills. Marseilles became famous for doing the sort of maneuvering and high-deflection shooting that is actually fairly routine for AHII pilots.
 
There is a big difference between an environment with icons than one without them in regards to how difficult it is to surprise another pilot. Note, I'm not saying that we should get rid of icons, that would simulate legally blind pilots and would be even worse. But when it comes to getting visual on air traffic in the real world, there is just a whole lot of sky to be searched. It can take a minute, even if you are getting specific directions on where to look from ATC. Once you get your eyes on the airplane, it is quite visible and identifiable, but you've got to get your eyes on it in the first place.

[HighGTrn]

Getting rid of icons.... Now that would be interesting.  I think I'm gonna fly with icons off in tonight's FSO and try for some immersion.  Gonna have to get close enough to ID an aircraft before I shoot.  I agree with you though, getting rid of the icons in the MA with everyone flying all country's planes is chaotic.

One other thing I found about 109s (at least here in AH world), is rudders!  109s can do some amazing things if you have great rudder mastery.  With this, the other requirement are foot pedals.  Just ordered mine as a present.  I heard that newbies to rudder pedals have a tough time at first.  Is this true?

[Saurdaukar]

Just ordered mine as a present.  I heard that newbies to rudder pedals have a tough time at first.  Is this true?

Absolutely. 

However, they are like cell phones.  Once you get used to them, you'll wonder how you ever got on without them.

[DREDIOCK]

We don't have to fear death,

Key phrase. so we also are willing to take chances here that the RL pilots wouldnt have even considered. Or. If they considered many of them. They quickly dismissed the notion. We can afford to take chances they never would

Another thing we dont have to deal with here is that during a high speed manoeuvre the cumulative effects of g-forces on the pilot's head and body cause pilot fatigue which also impairs pilot performance.