"Uber" planes revisited

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Eerrr ummmm actually I have read reports that the Me262 could have been ready over a year earlier than it was, due to personal meddling by Hitler, and the mismanagement of the Luftwaffe command development sections.

Very scary notion.

Ummm yes and no. Yes, Hitler messed up the Me262 program making them blitz jabos (at least trying it so). But the plane wasnt ready ,in any of its variants, until summer 44. The engines were very unreliable, less that 8 hours of running each one...and that if you were lucky.

In fact the first rush of me262 in service as fighters was a failure. Kommando Nowotny ,the first squadron with Mw262 suffered badly from the engine problems and lack of adaptation to the new model. Even the CO, Walter Nowotny, was killed when trying to land in his Me262.

So it is true that Hitler said in 1943 that the plane was to be a jabo...but with or without him, Me262 wont have been in service until it was in RL.


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Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

   

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-19-2000).]

[Nath-BDP]

Actually, Nowotny was killed engaging 8th Air force B17s, strangley, the day he was killed Adolf Galland was visiting the newly equipped Me262 base.  

P.S. Did you know that the first operational sorties flown by the 190D were to protect Kommado Nowotny while it was equipping with its 262s?

[Nashwan]

Nowotny was killed trying to land his 262 with engine trouble. He was returning to base low and slow when he was bounced by a Mustang. The Mustang claimed to have damaged Nowotny futher, but from reports of the crash it is likely the engine trouble caused Nowotny to stall and crash on final approach.

[RAM]

Walter Nowotny declared by radio the attack on his plane by Mustangs. One of his engines catched fire and he couldnt do anything to keep it airborne. The plane crashed and got on fire.

Adolf Galland was there,yes ,and that was because he wanted to have a first hand impression of why didnt the 262 had more success. He saw Nowotny's death only a couple of kilometers from him...and,sure, he had all the tips of why didnt 262 had more success.

I always thougnt the P51s hit the 262 and made it catch fire, but fires on the 262 engines were VERY common (as shutdowns)...so It could be well a failure.In fact production engines had an estimated life of 90minutes (!!!!!), although prototypes had some 8 hours (prototypes were hand-made, production ones had problems with poor alloy quality).Eventually the problems were more or less overcome and the 262 became a killing machine, but not before late 1944.

Anyway it was clear that in medium 1944 Me262's engines were still dangerous experimental things. In fact, one year later, soviet testers founded the Me262 amusing (its wing especially), but in the end they regarded it as a dangerous plane,due the faulty engines.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-20-2000).]

[Vermillion]

RAM, I wasn't only speaking of Hitler's tendency to meddle in a personal nature with weapons developement.

I was speaking of Germany's entire weapons development, procurement, and war time economic system in WWII.

Strangely, while Germany has some of the finest battle field Generals, Strategists (developement of Blitzkrieg tactics), Tacticians, and some of the best trained individual pilots and soliders.

Economically, and developmentally, as a whole they were one of the worst.

From what I have read there was constant bickering, squabbling, and backstabbing among the weapons developement types. Not the scientists, but the Headquarters types.

Additionally, there was a pervasive view that the war would be short, or it was "almost over", so there was little thought given to long term development. A very good example of this is that there was very little effort to maximize the Germany economy for wartime production, until very late in the war. This is why Germany was able to actually increase military production through out 1944, even though the Allies were pounding their infrastructure into rubble.  There was that much economic output that was being directed elsewhere.

A good example, the Bf109 was an excellent fighter early in the war, but by 1942/1943 was obviously begining to become an obsolete design. There were several designs the Germans came up with that could have lead to a very successful replacement. However the view was that the war would shortly be over, and the Bf109 would be "good enough". And that lead down the path of 109 development we see the results of today.

Just my viewpoint that the Germans had difficulty in looking ahead in the Second World War, rather than looking at the immediate next couple of months.

Yes, the developed some incredible "secret weapons", but as a whole, their system was lacking.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[RAM]

Some comments    

   

Originally posted by Vermillion:


Strangely, while Germany has some of the finest battle field Generals, Strategists (developement of Blitzkrieg tactics), Tacticians, and some of the best trained individual pilots and soliders.

Agree in all except Strategists. Blitzkrieg was a theory depeloped at operational level, a hole new dimension that brought the germans during WWII, fading between Strategic and Tactical level. Strategically the German Staff was completely lost. They put efforts on useless campaigns (I.E. Balkans), when regarding as secondary important fronts that were never approached seriously (Malta, North Africa...).
That strategical lack of mind was seen too in Luftwaffe. Its mind was that of a tactical support force, so they never developed a serious strategical bomber until too late. Kriegsmarine was low on resources and couldnt play any role but some raider efforts...Even Wehrmatch never thought in the big picture instead of little pieces of it (In fact if they had done that in 1939 the war would've never started).

   

Economically, and developmentally, as a whole they were one of the worst.

From what I have read there was constant bickering, squabbling, and backstabbing among the weapons developement types. Not the scientists, but the Headquarters types.

Oh,yes...German high command was a sneak pit. I dont know if you know the story of the development of Messerchmitt Bf109 "love story" between Edhard Milch and Willi Messerchmitt...but is a good example

   

Additionally, there was a pervasive view that the war would be short, or it was "almost over", so there was little thought given to long term development. A very good example of this is that there was very little effort to maximize the Germany economy for wartime production, until very late in the war. This is why Germany was able to actually increase military production through out 1944, even though the Allies were pounding their infrastructure into rubble.  There was that much economic output that was being directed elsewhere..

A good example, the Bf109 was an excellent fighter early in the war, but by 1942/1943 was obviously begining to become an obsolete design. There were several designs the Germans came up with that could have lead to a very successful replacement. However the view was that the war would shortly be over, and the Bf109 would be "good enough". And that lead down the path of 109 development we see the results of today.

Agree and disagree. You see clearly that the war effort was directed to a short war. Verm, Germany had no choice, as everyone knew that a long war was one that Germany would lose (as it did), if someone was going to win the short war,it was Germany. Allied side saw the other side, the long effort was the one that would favor them so they choose it. Attrition war was one to be lost by Axis and Germans and Italians knew that...so they focused on short term instead long term.

You say that 109 was an obsolete designt in 1942. I dont agree, but thats other thing...in fact Germany had prototypes of "Bf209" as soon as in 1940. The fact that it was a complete failure wasn't linked with the "short term view" discussed above.

Regarding the 1944 production output...well I cant avoid to say that it was partly because the "total war" declared in 1943 by goebbels...but also because Milch was gone from the Armaments Ministry...and Albert Speer was there, instead. He was an architect...but he was,too,the man who gave Germany one more year of "life". He and his advisors (Guderian between them, made the miracle of Wehrmatch recovery in 1943 possible, giving an unstopable boost to German armor output...they descentralized Germany's economy as possible as it was...etc.

Said that there was still a lot of problems up in weapons development. Fw190D9 could have been flying in 1943, and Ta152 wasnt a truth in middle 1944 because RLM hindered Tank the use of the excellent DB603 engine for it in the grounds of lack of reliability (???!!!!)...the truth is that DB603 was an engine that RLM never asked for...and they put a ban on it because that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...so Tank had to work with Junkers engines...the delay was long and well, you see the results...Tank had been pressing on DB603 for Ta152 since 1942!...and was granted permission to develop the DB-engined Ta152C...in 1945.


   

Just my viewpoint that the Germans had difficulty in looking ahead in the Second World War, rather than looking at the immediate next couple of months.

Yes, the developed some incredible "secret weapons", but as a whole, their system was lacking

Well as I said before the "short term" mind was the right one...until it was clear that the war was going to be a long attrition war instead a blitz one.

And yes, in aeronautic development they were years away from allied...Me262's wing studies were used both for MiG15 and F86 Sabre...in fact MiG15 seems a reskinned ta183...

Only some thoughts on this matter...Its scary to know how near were Hitler and they gang to win the war...thanks god for his megalomaniacal views.

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Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

     


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-20-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Good points RAM

I wasn't thinking so much of the Bf209, but of some others. A couple that comes to mind immediately are the:

He-100: This fighter was killed purely for politics, and it potentially could have been the finest piston engine fighter of the war.

In the fall of 1939, the D1's (actual war prototypes, 16 built), were doing 416mph  at 16,000ft with a DB601 engine. One other prototype with a special race engine in it, did 463mph in 1939.

For Comparison, the Bf109F4 was 30 mph slower, turned worse, and it was equipped with the same engine and armament, and it came an entire year later. Plus the He-100 has similar acceleration and climbing ability to the Bf109.

Another excellent "could have been" was the French Designed (but built and delievered to the Luftwaffe) Block 157.

In early 1943 this fighter was doing 441 mph at 25,250ft, 4 mph faster than the P-51D, and well over a year earlier. It was a rugged built radial and it had good armament of x2 Hispano 20mm and x2 light MG's.  It had similar powerloading to the Spit IX.  And it also had a significantly larger wing, and superior turning ability than the 109 of that period. Hell.. I would fly this bird in our current late 44-45 arena.

Just a couple that I can think of   I wouldn't be suprised if there were others.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Rendar]

The K-4 has a cleaner airframe than the G-10.  For example, the tail wheel retracts.

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Rendar

[juzz]

"One other prototype with a special race engine in it, did 463mph in 1939."

The He 100 V8 which reached 463.5mph was actually faster than the Me 209(aka: Me 109R) which was given the record at 469.2mph.

How? The Messerschmitt was flown at an airfield with a higher altitude above sea level than the He 100 V8 was, which would have reached 470.4mph if it had flown from the same airfield.

The RLM wanted it to appear that a normal Luftwaffe fighter had broken the record, so they came up with the fictional Me 109R designation and denied Heinkel another chance at breaking the record.

[juzz]

Here's an amusing tidbit regarding the Me 262 engines...
 

The utilisation of turbo jet engines would presumably provide some relief to the aircraft engine industry because, according to the opinion of the engine technical experts, it has a life cycle use five times longer than piston engines before overhaul is required.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 05-20-2000).]

[Karnak]

juzz,
of course in reality the German industry was so smashed that they couldn't make the high quality metal needed for the 262's engines and they had a life expectancy of about 10 hours.

Sisu

[Duckwing6]

i wanna have the 262 with all here engine quirks ..

If you firewall it .. it either:

Surges -> toasting the compressor and then the rest of the engine as pieces of the toasted compressor fly back thrugh the gas path

it just plain and simple overtemps the turbine -> toasted ..

if you pull to idle:
a) at alt -> the engine flames out at will because you didn't watch the minimum idle speeds of the engine to sustain combustion
b) at low alt -> you over-boost the compressor due to high air density and get it to either stall or surge resulting in a flame out and or toasted engine

You have an intermediate throttle setting at lower alt -> you exceed exhaust gas temperature because not enough air is flowing through the engine due to your lower throttle setting and therfore you toast the combustor and turbine

The Engine just shedds turbine blades at will

The engine shedds compressor blades at will-> sending shrappnell in all directions

any change in throttle setting and or G can:

Over-temp, Stall, flame-out and or get the engine to surge...

Man i'm still admiring how those guys actually found the time to fight in those beasts