RLM and FW test data

[Werewolf]

Some new data comparing different types:

Fw 190A-8 (BMW 801D / 2 x MG 131, 4 x MG 151/20)

Vmax (sealevel): 548 kph (578 kph with MW 50)
Vmax (6,3km)   : 644 kph (652 kph with MW 50)

FW 190 D-9 (Jumo 213 A / 2 x MG 131, 2 x MG 151/20)

Vmax (sealevel): 576 kph (612 kph with MW 50)
Vmax (6,6 km)  : 685 kph (702 kph with MW 50)

with armament of 2 MG 151/20 and 2 x MK 108 Vmax is reduced 10 kph (should be the same for 4 x MG 151/20)

FW 190 D-12 (Jumo 213 F, 1 x MK 108, 2 x MG 151/20)

Vmax (sealevel): 572 kph (608 kph with MW 50)
Vmax (11,6 km) : 738 kph (738 kph)


Ta 152 H-0 (Jumo 213 E / 1 x Mk 108, 2 x MG 151/20)

Vmax (sealevel): 540 kph (580 kph with GM-1)
Vmax (10,7 km) : 720 kph (742 kph with GM-1)

Ta 152 C-0 (DB 603 L / 1 x MK 108, 4 x MG 151/20)

Vmax (sealevel): 576 kph
Vmax (10,5 km) : 753 kph

I hope this data helps a little in modeling LW iron correctly. I will post scans of the documents to Pyro and HT in order to get our planes modeled correctly.

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"

[Hristo]

Good info, Werewolf ! Can you please name the source of the data (book, author, or are these original RLM test books) ?

612 kph on the deck
some 380 mph for that MW 50 Dora  

Keep it coming !

P.S.
Do we hear that Jumo engine warming up, HTC crew ?

[Werewolf]

Hristo here the book:

Focke-Wulf Ta 152 "Der Weg zum Höhenjäger" (The way to High altitude fighter) by Dietmar Hermann, ISBN 3-925505-44-X

He has put some original RLM and Focke-Wulf documents in it which all bear a top secret remark.  

1. Data sheet showing flightspeed related to altitude and variant for Ta 152 with different engines and use of GM-1
date: 04. Sept. 1943

2. Main data for cannon armament with different ammunition types
05. January 1945

3. Performance sheet DB 603 E-F
date April 1943

4. Data sheet showing the climbrate of Ta 152 (different variants) and Fw 190D related to altitude
date: 29. May 1944

5. Data sheet showing Vmax and overall performance related to altitude
date: 29. May 1944

6. Data sheet comparing performance data of FW 190A-8, FW190A-9, FW 190D-9 (Jumo 213A), FW 190D-12, Ta 152 H-0, Ta 152 C-0, Ta 152 E-0, FW 190(D-9 / DB 603A), FW 190(D-9 / DB 603E), Ta 152(C-0 / DB 603 E)
date: 01. Oct. 1944

On top there are many technical drawings by the Focke-Wulf company, showing technical details and other original documents related to weights, fluids and other stuff.

As soon as I get my scanner I will send them to you.

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"

[wells]

You got anything on climb rates with and without MW50?

[Werewolf]

Yes wells, here are the numbers I got:

Ta 152 C (DB 603 L)

8,1 mins to 6km, 11,6 mins to 8 km, 16,1 to 10km, 19,8 to 11 km

FW 190 D-12 (Jumo 213 E)

7,6 mins to 6 km, 10,7 mins to 8 km, 14,7 to 10 km, 17,6 mins to 11 km, 23 mins to 12 km

Ta 152 C (DB 603 L with MW 50)

7,2 mins to 6 km, 10,3 mins to 8 km, 14,3 to 10 km, 17,3 to 11 km, 23,4 to 12 km

FW 190 D-9 (Jumo 213 A)

16,8 minutes to 10 km without MW 50
12,5 minutes to 10 km with MW 50

Hope this gives a picture

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"
 

[fd ski]

Werewolf - i'm rather suprized looking at those numbers...

7 minutes + to 6 kms ?

I saw numbers for 109G and spit 9 climbing to 20k ( about 6 km ) in less then 5 minues and 30 seconds !!!

How does that agree with the stuff we all heard about 190D and 152 being climbing monsters from hell ?

Just curious.. ( not George   )



------------------


Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[CombatWombat]

Whered you hear that?!?!  They were fast, but hardly excellent climbers.  Just look at them, they dont exactly look like billy goats if you ask me.  The small wing gives it a "heavy" look, and compared to 109/spits they ARE heavy.  

Yes yes...I'm sure you want NUMBERS!  I prefer a different method.  I look at the plane!  Yes...just look at the thing!  If you know anything about aircraft at all you should be able to piece together HP, wieght, and overall aerodynamics and kinda guess how it flew.  It doesnt help you when figuring exact speeds and stuff, but for comparrisons it seems to work ok for me  = )


<sneeeep>
How does that agree with the stuff we all heard about 190D and 152 being climbing monsters from hell ?

[wells]

Those times give an average climb rate.  They didn't use 2 stage superchargers for the most part, so power and climb rate are pretty low at 20k.  Down low, they would be pretty decent...

[Vermillion]

yah Fd-Ski, you sure better not associate yourself with "George"... you might get your errr ummmmm "power" parts snipped !!

 

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires   "

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 12-02-1999).]

[fd ski]

Verm - i would never purposly associate myself with something that damn ugly  


------------------


Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[-kier-]

CombatWombat-

The 109 had one of the lowest wing surface areas of all the "major" WWII fighters- in fact, the 109 was a small plane in general. Way more to climbrate than the size of the wing, though.    

Looking at your post, you have mentioned a few, but there are other things that are not readily available to the naked eye.

What type of airfoil is selected?

What do the wind tunnel tests reveal about drag?

Is the engine/prop combination the most efficient possible? (Early P47's were horrible climbers until they were repropped)



[This message has been edited by -kier- (edited 12-02-1999).]

[Vermillion]

Yea Ski I give you that !

The N1K2 is one ugly plane. Look's a little like a Zero that went on a eating binge and put on a few tons.

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Werewolf]

fd ski:

I you look at the data correctly yo will see that it is the data for the Ta 152 C. A heavvy fighter with 1 MK 108 and 4 x MG 151/20. But nevertheless it is testing data from beginning of 1944. Later testing data shows the following:

Climb to 10km

FW 190D-12 (Jumo 213 F): 10,9 minutes
Ta 152C-0 (DB 603 L):    10,9 minutes
Ta 152H-0 (Jumo 213 E):  10,1 minutes
FW 190D-9 (Jumo 213 A):  12,5 minutes

Up to this point (data is from October 44) the engineers made big improvements on those engines and planes and a climbrate of more than 3300 feet per minute (if you convert these numbers)seems to be quite good. Keep the point in mind that the Ta 152 C had a weight of 5,3 tons, Ta 152 H 5,2 tons and the FW 190-D 4,5 tons.
A test report quotes about 21 m / sec climbrate for the Ta 152 H at sealevel.

A direct comparison to the Spitfire XIV shows that Ta 152 H-0 and Spitfire XIV were comparable (Ta numbers without additives like MW 50 or GM1).

Ta 152 had 11 kph more speed, a better average climb (0,3 meters / second) but at low alt a slight disadvantage in climb (21 m / s to 23 m / s).

With GM 1 or MW 50 Ta 152 definetely was the better plane by the numbers.

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"

[funked]

Fd - the Ta 152C did not see service and the Fw 190D-12 was a very rare plane compared to the Fw 190D-9.

[weretiger]

hello
I have some different figures they are from document german document in the PRO archives

It does not proves werewolf figures wrong. He has a very reliable source, anyway here they are.

From flight test conducted the 31-7-44
this is from a report of the 1/11/44.

Fw 190 d9 with 213 a-1 without any booster.
w: 4.35 ton. 2 mg 131 475 rnds + 2 mg 151/20 250 rnds).the tank behind the pilot was full.
alt     climb combact   WEP   WEP+mw50
sl      556             575
6.6 km  675             683
10 km   ???             635

ROC (i believe this is with the Climb/combact regime)
7.1 min to 6 km
16.8 min to 10 km

fw 190 D12 with 213 E
w: 4.65. (130kg of MW50) 1 mk 108 (85 rnd) + 2 mg 151/20 175 rnds.

alt     climb/combact   WEP   WEP+mw50
sl      550             ??    608
6.6     710             ??    724
11.6    ???             738
ROC
10.9 min to 10 k
15.5 min to 12 k

TA 152 H-1
jumo 213 e
w: 4.81. (104kg of GM1) 1 mk 108 (85 rnd) + 2 mg 151/20 175 rnds.
alt     climb/combact   WEP   climb/comb+gm1
sl      520             538
10.5    698             714
12.5    660             680    745
                             (150gm/s of gm1)

ROC
7.5 to 6 km
14  to 10 km

I hope it helps..