Another Mustang Collision - Duxford

[Puma44]

Good analysis and ideas Eagl.  This incident makes one wonder what kind of formal formation training is required for these guys, if any.  As Eagl describes from his trainer experiences, this appears to be a beginner type mistake.  Very fortunate to have recovered the Mustang safely.  That stab damage must have produced a lot of airframe vibration.  Has anyone seen pictures of the other Mustang’s prop?

[Vraciu]

Excellent analysis, eagl.   Thanks. 

[icepac]

Very similar collision took out Big Beautiful Doll.

[Serenity]

Eagl, out of curiosity, do you teach the step down turning rejoin all the way through advanced to the fleet? Or is that just a T-6 thing?

I know in T-6s they taught us the step down on the inside (WAY back when, lol), but once in intermediate and advanced, -2, -3, -4 and so on are all co-altitude with lead during the whole joinup (Until the crossunder at the end to wind up outside the turn).

[DaveBB]

From a combat standpoint, what benefit does flying in tight formation have?  A single missile can damage multiple planes, as can a single AAA shell.  The risk of collision is higher.  Radar has the resolution to identify individual aircraft now, unlike the early 1960s.

[Vraciu]

From a combat standpoint, what benefit does flying in tight formation have?  A single missile can damage multiple planes, as can a single AAA shell.  The risk of collision is higher.  Radar has the resolution to identify individual aircraft now, unlike the early 1960s.

Formation flying in IMC requires it, among other things. 

[Serenity]

From a combat standpoint, what benefit does flying in tight formation have?  A single missile can damage multiple planes, as can a single AAA shell.  The risk of collision is higher.  Radar has the resolution to identify individual aircraft now, unlike the early 1960s.

Tight forms aren't a combat thing. They're an IMC/Admin/Training thing.

Tac Form is 1.0 to 1.5 miles apart.

[colmbo]

what benefit does flying in tight formation have?

Because above all else you have to look good on initial!!!  Sheesh.

[eagl]

Eagl, out of curiosity, do you teach the step down turning rejoin all the way through advanced to the fleet? Or is that just a T-6 thing?

I know in T-6s they taught us the step down on the inside (WAY back when, lol), but once in intermediate and advanced, -2, -3, -4 and so on are all co-altitude with lead during the whole joinup (Until the crossunder at the end to wind up outside the turn).

Even operationally it's stepped down a bit, but not very far.  The T-6 and T-37 rejoin lines were a bit farther aft, a bit lower aspect and a tiny bit of a tail chase to slow things down, but operationally you still set up on the line just a tiny bit below lead's plane of motion, and drive it in.  Ideally you can drive straight in with zero change in the sight picture until you just park it in 2 ship-width's route, pause half a potato, and drive it in to fingertip.  It helps if you're sitting far ahead of the wing like in an advanced trainer or fighter, and that's one reason why the primary trainer rejoin line is slightly lower and farther aft.

If you think about it, in a turn, the route position is still along the wingline and the lead is banked towards you, so 50 ft off a banked-down wingtip is going to be just a bit below the lead.  You don't drive up the wingtip line of course, the rejoin is done with lead just a touch above the horizon so any overshoot is just relaxing the pull and rolling out of the turn a bit like a crossunder without having to bunt down to get underneath lead.  The trick is usually recognizing it early enough to maintain nose-tail separation so you pass behind lead and not directly below or in front.  Maintaining the contract is much more important when it's more than a 2-ship of course.

[Gman]

Really interesting read here.  Have zero training or even a frame of reference regarding formation flying and how it's done, but I've always wondered how separation is maintained through various maneuvers, even simple turns.

I saw this a few years back, an RV8 celebration thing, heh, maybe HT was even in this pic for all I know. Anyhow, first instinct - I thought that the least skilled pilot in this formation was pretty much the common denominator for every soul on board these planes.  How common is formation training for civilian pilots anyhow?  From what Eagl just wrote I'm assuming that more than a 2 ship, the degree of difficulty increases.  So what's a 30 ship like?

[eagl]

Anything more than 4-ship can be difficult enough that the USAF requires extremely high approval authority for more than 4.  4-star approval if I recall correctly.

I don't know if the Navy still does their carrier air wing arrival show when the get back from cruise, but their attitude about that has always been a bit different than the USAF.

[Puma44]

From a combat standpoint, what benefit does flying in tight formation have?  A single missile can damage multiple planes, as can a single AAA shell.  The risk of collision is higher.  Radar has the resolution to identify individual aircraft now, unlike the early 1960s.

From a combat standpoint, tactical formation is flown to/from a combat mission area.  If there is weather requiring an instrument approach, the fingertip formation is flown to expeditiously recover multiple aircraft.

[colmbo]

  How common is formation training for civilian pilots anyhow?  From what Eagl just wrote I'm assuming that more than a 2 ship, the degree of difficulty increases.  So what's a 30 ship like?

My formation training was done the same as my jump plane training.  On the second flight hauling skydivers I was chase in a 2-ship....which was my first time flying formation (non flight sim).    Never bent anything or hurt anyone.....not the best way to learn.

There is a program for civilians, IIRC it has the acronym FAST, that I think is required for most airshow formations.

No restrictions on Joe Bob and Billy Lee jumping in their flivvers and formating to their hearts content as long as the flight is briefed before hand.