Author Topic: Modern day kill awards, pilot or RIO?  (Read 410 times)

Offline Thrawn

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Modern day kill awards, pilot or RIO?
« on: February 01, 2002, 06:24:40 PM »
A friend asked me a question today and I didn't have answer.  I hope you guys can help me with it.  

It's my understanding that in modern, two-seater fighter aircraft, the RIO has control over the missles and the pilot has control over the guns.  Who gets the kill if they shoot down a plane, under different conditions?  Both?  Pilot if it's shot down with guns?  RIO if it's shot down with missles?

Thanks!

Offline Toad

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Modern day kill awards, pilot or RIO?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2002, 12:52:38 AM »
"The rules were changed again in the Vietnam War. When an F-4 downed an enemy aircraft, USAF would award two full aerial victory credits--one to the front-seater and one to the back-seater. As in World War I, a single victory resulted in multiple victory credits."


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Offline Octavius

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Modern day kill awards, pilot or RIO?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2002, 01:36:22 AM »
Same thing applies to bomber crews?  Buffs reported more kills than were really shot down because gunners from different positions/bombers actually claimed the same kill some times.  Is that true?
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Offline Durr

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Modern day kill awards, pilot or RIO?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2002, 03:28:47 AM »
In WW2 it was common for the same kill to be claimed by many bombers, possibly even different gunners on the same bomber.  However, efforts were made to only award the kill once.  Also, gunner kills arent counted the same way that pilot kills are in official records.  Gunners with 5 kills arent counted as aces or anything.  RIOs and WSOs on modern 2 seat fighters are, however counted as aces if they get 5 kills.  Indeed, the leading US scorer of the Vietnam war was a F-4 Phantom backseater, Col Chuck DeBellevue (6 kills).  As mentioned in the earlier post, both crewmembers get = credit on the basis that it took both of them.  As to who controls what,  the pilot has control of the gun, and usually, but not always, is the one that physically fires the missiles by pressing the button.  The backseater manipulates the radar, keeps the enemy aircraft locked up, defends against missiles by operating countermeasures such as the chaff, flares, and jammer,  and keeps watch over the airplanes 6.

Offline Toad

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Modern day kill awards, pilot or RIO?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2002, 08:29:37 AM »
As far as I can tell, the WW2 USAAF did not even keep official kill tallies for gunners.

The only records are some reels of microfilm at Maxwell that contain mission reports for the individual squadrons and divisions. Some of these contain names of gunners and aerial victory claims, but the Maxwell guys admit they are far from all inclusive. Some units routinely reported gunner/claim, some did intermittently and some units didn't report them at all.

I had a personal interest in this area and have corresponded with AF Historians at Maxwell. (Haven't ordered the microfilm yet though.. it's about $75 a roll and they aren't necessarily sorted by squadron.. yet.  (Come on computerization!  :) )
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!