Need real life flight performance data on Spit1A and 110

[Ripsnort]

Discussion came up in CT arena, so I quickly ran some tests on my other box while out on climb out in a JU88:
Aces High Spit 1A Sea Level speed:
Military: 285
WEP:295

Aces High BF110C Sea level speed:
Military: 315
WEP: 330

My best source only compares operations altitude for the "Typical 110G " (as Janes puts it) at 21k (340 mph) and Spit1A at 20k (367 mph).

Does anyone have sea level rates for the 110C and the Spit1A? Seems like theres quite a despairity here?

[Sachs]

not sure about low alt but I know the C4 had an advantage over the spits at high alt.  Which is where they should have stayed but no some dork knob said escort bombers at low speed and low alt.  Dont understand but hey they were calling the shots.

[mw]

For the Spit I:

Top speed of 367 mph is too fast for a Spit I with a bullit-proof windscreen, while 295 at SL is too slow for a Merlin III running at +12 boost.

[funkedup]

If Bf 110C is doing more than about 300 on the deck then something is very wrong.

[Squire]

Agreed, the 110C was slower than a SpitfireIa at all alts.

The 110C was never capable of more than 330 mph from the sources I have. It was at least 20 mph slower than a Spit, probably 10-15 mph slower at most alts. It was a match for the Hurricane in speed, but less manueverable.

Ughh, the 110C was better at high alt? I really doubt that and have never heard any such thing. The 110C was unsuitable as a day fighter over Britain in 1940, escort or sweep. It had its days sure, but its like saying the Hurricane was on par with the 109E. Which it was not. SpitfiresIs completely outclassed the 110C.

Bottom line, Hurricane 1 and 110C  (the 2 slower types) about equal speed (roughly) and SpitI and 109E  (the 2 faster types)equal speed (roughly).

Neither the Hurricane I or 110C should hit 300 with boost at sea level.

Comparison: I dug up a source that pegs the 110G (the 1942 model) with the 1475hp DB605s capable of 311 at sea level max.

Seems the AH 110C and the 109E are about equal speed? that cant be right. 109E should be faster at all alts.

Regards.

[Staga]

DB's had good, variable speed superchargers with somekind of fluid-clutch powered by two oil-pumps and early Merlins (C, II, III) in Hurricanes and Spitfires had only "single stage single speed" chargers. Could be one reason why Daimler-Benz engines were better in high alts in early war.

btw Bf-110C had two different engines: DB601A (1175hp/87oct.) in early versions and more powerfull DB601N (1250hp/100oct.) in versions capable to carry bombs (like in AH).

[Staga]

I just looked HTC's speed charts and they look fine for 110 with DB601N engine.
BF110 With DB601A was 20mph slower than what AH has and F and G models with DB601F and DB605 engines are much faster, +350mph and +370mph @16-22k.

[Squire]

Ok, well that might explain the difference, but most 110Cs were the C-3s and C-4s with the slower engine in the BoB. They certainly were not as fast as Spitfires down low, maybe compared to Spitfires of 1939 with the two bladed prop, but not the standard 1A.

Appreciate the extra info, btw, Im not on a LW whine fest either, its just I found it very odd that it was so fast at sea level, I will say that almost all the LW a/c in AH seem to be the very very best of whatever subtypes are given though, ie, 109E-4 not the E-3, 110C-4, not the C-3, ect.

Give me a Spitfire II and I will be happy

Regards.

[Staga]

Copied from Bf109.com:

BF-109E-3 had provisions for the installation of an MG-FF cannon between the powerplant's cylinders. Problems of jamming, overheating and vibration, however, still plagued this modification, and most of the installations were either removed in the field, or seldom used. Because of the apparent failure of the nose-mounted MG-FF cannon, and its subsequent removal after installation, it was decided to produce the E-3 without the center-firing weapon. The result was the designation change to Bf 109E-4, with production deliveries beginning during the summer of 1940.

Only difference between Bf-110 C-3 and -4 was electrical systems and radios. AFAIR Bf-110C got more powerfull DB601N engines when it was modified to carry those bombs, plane had also better armour for pilot and gunner.

Oh and HTC didn't model best available 109 in BoB; That would propably be E-7. Same plane as E-4 but it was capable to carry external fuel tank.

109E-4 and 110C-4 are very good choices for BoB planes. BTW I would like to see 110C-6 with 30mm MK-101 cannon... it was in tests already in time of BoF

[Karnak]

Now, now Staga, don't fib.

The Bf109E-7 also has a slightly more powerful engine than does the Bf109E-4.

[Wotan]

there were also e4s with DB601Ns

Caldwell: You already had some Messerschmitts with DB 601Ns in 26, didn't you? How many?

Galland: I had many special aircraft, with special armament.

Caldwell: In the Battle of Britain? I thought your special armament came in 1941. Could you describe some of these aircraft? Were they 109Es?

Galland: I don't know if it was the E model. You can see it in the photographs.

Caldwell: That was in 1941, I believe, that you experimented with your armament, since you felt that the firepower of the Bf 109F was too light. I thought that the armament of the E was quite effective - the British certainly thought so.

Buerschgens: The E had a good armament. It had two cannons, which fired shells that exploded when they hit. You could see them.

Caldwell: Did you fly the same aircraft throughout the Battle, once you got the E-4/N with the DB 601N engine?

Galland: It was not the same aircraft - I changed aircraft.

Caldwell JG26 click on galland interview.

So the e7 would have been about the same as a e4n except with a dt.

Also read this again

Buerschgens: The E had a good armament. It had two cannons, which fired shells that exploded when they hit. You could see them.

[Squire]

And of course the Spitfire IIA with the Merlin XII. All would be good additions.