Author Topic: Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?  (Read 646 times)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Used me up?
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2002, 10:22:43 PM »
Not hardly; I've read this thread once or twice just for laughs and it's so good I hate run the risk of ruining the entertainment.

Besides, Karnak and Mav clearly have the situation under control. (Amongst others, of course. the rest of yas that understand what's really going on here. ;) )

For you though... I'll start a thread in the O-Club so you can continue to puzzle over trim, OK?

:D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline deSelys

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2512
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2002, 03:07:28 AM »
Well I think I'll have to quote myself:

Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Once again I don't want that everybody uses manual trim. I couldn't care less if it haden't 2 badly unrealistic side-effects:
1: you can't model planes with trim limited to some control surfaces only, like it was in RL.
2: you can straighten your plane easily while passing out when wounded.



I guess my english isn't good enough to exprim what I mean so I'll try to formulate it in an other way:
- do we agree that in RL some (most?) WWII planes hadn't the possibility to trim in flight all their control surfaces?
- if we agree with the statement above, how possibly can an honest auto-trim feature be modelled on every plane?
If you have a better idea, I'm sincerely all ears.


About trim: of course it isn't a primary control surfaces. And trim won't make your plane turn tighter. The 2 effects of trim I am aware of are:
- it allows to adjust the control surfaces so the plane flies 'hands off' for a given speed and torque, without any pressure on controls, making flying easier and effortless for the pilot ('comfort' feature)
- in some planes, when speed increases, control forces build up to a point where it is impossible for the pilot to move them (i.e. heavy elevator in 109s). Due to demultiplication, trim can make it possible to slowly move the locked controls (In the Big Show, Pierre Clostermann explains how he pulled out from a high speed dive by using the elevator trim wheel...but he nearly blacked out in the process).
Trim is hard to model realistically in a PC flight sim because stick forces can't be applied on today's joysticks. In fact, our stick feel like it is linked to control surfaces with rubber strings instead of steel wires. So until we have real 'force feedback' joysticks, we'll have to make do with the way trim is modelled now.

Sincerely, Toad, you are one people whom I most respect the comments (even when you say that I am wrong: I came to realize that 6K icons aren't 'unrealistic' thanks to you) because you have a flying and aerobatics experience. I was expecting you to step in and give me your opinion. Leaving the 'controls' to Maverick won't help the reader much.

Until now, I've only received comments (mostly negative) about the 'penalty' inflicted to those using aids. I realize that this is a disguised attempt at controlling how people are playing the game (although I did it with good intentions). So I agree that choice should be left free to use aids or not, without any penalty nor advantage. Cancel suggestion 1.

However, I would like to remind you all that most people (me included...I still use auto trim and auto fuel selection most of the time :rolleyes: ) are lazy and will seek the easy way out. The new bombing model proved it again: a lot are whining that they can't have the totally unrealistic precision they had before, and are too lazy to train a couple of hours offline or in TA to get used to the new system which, I believe, most dedicated bomber pilots will qualify as much better.

The 'WB mixed mode MA episode' is another example. And speaking of it, WB is slowly dying...so the players there will have to make a choice someday. Most of them don't like AH because of the inflight radar, and some other features. Most of them are hardcore simmers. You won't attract those folks with 'air starts' and 'power ups' hanging in the air...
The upcoming 'Mission Arena' is a clever attempt at getting those players here. Maybe some other 'realism' features, relatively easy to code, will add weight into the balance....

By the way, most answers focus on the suggestions 1 and 2. What do you think of 109 ground handling (Wmaker I'll OCR Capt Brown's article today), WEP automatic cutoff and radiator? Toad?


About radiator I forgot to say that I don't imply extra moving parts on the planes 3D models (like 109 slats; they are there but we don't see them moving). Eye candy is nice, but...
Current ID: Romanov

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

'I AM DID NOTHING WRONG' - Famous last forum words by legoman

Offline deSelys

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2512
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2002, 03:59:21 AM »
Toad I just read the OT discussion you had with Easymo (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61512 )

It is funny to see how you react here when you just stated there:
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Agree, Daff. Learning to trim is no biggie. The A/P is clearly a convenience tool.


I'm wondering how a flightsim game can catch the attention of someone who has the opportunity to fly a BT-13 in RL :rolleyes: but maybe it is just me.
 
And if you don't want 'useless difficulty', fine for you. You'll have to agree that most of us don't have your luck and will probably never put their hands on the controls of a real plane. And that maybe this 'useless difficulty' just adds a bit to immersion.

You have the knowledge to tell us if it is realistic or not. You don't have the right to tell us that an idea is stupid because you just down't want to go through the whole engine start procedure in AH as you have to do in RL.

Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Not hardly; I've read this thread once or twice just for laughs and it's so good I hate run the risk of ruining the entertainment.

Besides, Karnak and Mav clearly have the situation under control. (Amongst others, of course. the rest of yas that understand what's really going on here.  )

For you though... I'll start a thread in the O-Club so you can continue to puzzle over trim, OK?



May I suggest you to step down of you pedestal of arrogance and come back to the level of other players?

As I said, technically you are a reference and an asset to this community. Speaking of gameplay....well your opinions don't carry more weight than Easymo's, Lazs's or mines.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2002, 04:01:34 AM by deSelys »
Current ID: Romanov

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

'I AM DID NOTHING WRONG' - Famous last forum words by legoman

Offline Shiva

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
      • http://members.cox.net/srmalloy/
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2002, 07:43:19 AM »
Quote
Now what about adjusting ENY up a bit when you don't use the aid features. This way, ENY stay the same for the others and everyone is happy. No stick, just a carrot.
I'm sure you won't be jealous for not receiving the carrot now...


And then we get to listen people squeaking about screwing up a flight because they were going for the zoom enable key without looking at the keyboard and missed, hitting the 'x' key and blowing an autotrimless flight out the window.

If people think flying without using the autotrim is worth the additional effort, they'll do it -- but your proposal doesn't give people the same 'value' that you believe manual trim provides. The people who enjoy managing their trim manually and historically accurately for their plane are free to do that right now. And the people who don't want to have to deal with manual trim or the variation in trim ability from plane to plane are equally free to use all the trim functions. What you are proposing is never going to get people to use only the plane-accurate manual trim because it's more immersive; what you get is people who do it to get the extra perks so they can fly their pet überride a little sooner, at which point they'll go back to using the autotrim functions.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2002, 08:32:17 AM »
Easymo... I'll get you for that!  ;)


Quote
Originally posted by deSelys It is funny to see how you react here when you just stated there
[/b]

Learning to trim in an aircraft is WAY easier than it is in a game. The stick feedback simplifies it. Games have no feedback.

HOWEVER whether it's easy or not, there's no reason to reward people for using it or punish them for not using it. Same with the autopilot. I could go into a big discussion here, but my reasons for saying that have pretty much already been stated in this thread by other folks that disagree with you. :)


Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
I'm wondering how a flightsim game can catch the attention of someone who has the opportunity to fly a BT-13 in RL  but maybe it is just me.


Well, let me try to clear it up a bit for you:

In RL, the act of taking the BT out for a "spin" :) so to speak is about a 5 hour procedure overall. Driving to the field, preflight, weather brief, tractor it out of the hangar, start, warmup, fly for 1.5, return, refuel, tractor it back in the hangar, wash it down to get the bugs and oil spray off , close up the hangar, drink a beer with friends and then drive home. In other words, it a pretty "all day affair".

Then, the weather has to be good. It's not an instrument airplane. It's not that much fun if it's real turbulent. So that limits days right there.

Then, there's that ugly old RL itself. You know, the one where you have to go to WORK instead of to the hangar? Mow the grass? Change the fuel pump on the pickup truck?

Oh, yah.. did I mention maintenance on the aircraft? Right now the right strut seal leaked and the right strut is flat. That's a long job that's going to require a lot of time. Waiting for a "new" 50 year old strut seal to come in right now.. hope that one holds.

Gosh, did I mention cost? Figure you'll burn ~20-25 gallons an hour at $2.50 and hour and about $5 in oil. So figure about $75 for a 1.5 hour hop.....gee that's 5 MONTHS of AH, isn't it?

Well, I could go on, but perhaps by now you see why I often just come in at night, sit down at the computer, click a mouse 4 or 5 times and go "flying" for 1.5 hours in AH.

.......and why I don't want to spend it doing things that are unrelated to or make no difference to the fun part of AH.

Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
maybe this 'useless difficulty' just adds a bit to immersion
[/b]

Obviously, different people require different levels of immersion. I thought the CT was the place for that? Perhaps you can get some of these things added there?

All joking aside, I think the folks that want this stuff should have a separate arena where this "non-germane immersion detail" is required. No reason why both sides shouldn't have what they desire.

Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
You don't have the right to tell us that an idea is stupid because you just down't want to go through the whole engine start procedure in AH as you have to do in RL.
[/b]

Of course I do. I have the same right to voice my opinion as YOU do. And that IS my opinion.

Probably what angers you is that the opinion disagrees with yours and that I've actually started aircraft engines.... just a guess here.


Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Speaking of gameplay....well your opinions don't carry more weight than Easymo's, Lazs's or mines.


EXACTLY. Mine has no more value than YOURS. YOURS has no more value than mine. (wrt to gameplay)

And when it comes to a vote, I'll vote against drudgery in a game every time... EVERY time. Whether I vote with a ballot or a credit card. :D

BTW, just to make your day... here's another one that I do fly a lot more.. it only burns 10 gallons an hour an ... psychoanalyse this for me, will ya? ...... it's MORE FUN than the BT but it's LESS COMPLEX!!!!! Go figure, eh? :D

I'm in the front seat of 33 and my WW2 pilot Dad is in the back seat. (BTW, Dad has his own PT-26 in Canadian colors.) My brother is in the front seat of #2 in an aircraft he just sold because he just finished an even better PT.

So, in the family we have a BT and 3 PT's.  But I STILL play this game... hmmm......... maybe if I put a .50 on the PT.. nah... I'd get in trouble!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2002, 08:43:28 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline easymo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1640
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2002, 02:16:26 PM »
Easymo... I'll get you for that!  



And Rodan sings "sweet mystery of life at last I found you" while Godzilla gives it to him.:D

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2002, 04:08:49 PM »
Yah... you suckered me into this thread when I swore I wasn't getting into that stuff again. Nobody listens, nobody really cares anyway; they've formed their opinion.

But... if you check Hang's FIRST Godzilla/Rodan post you'll notice that he framed his simile this way: Toad/Easymo & Godzilla/Rodan.

I take that to mean that I'm "Godzilla" and you're "Rodan"... so bend over and sing, honey!  I'll know what it means when you hit the hi notes! ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline easymo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1640
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2002, 07:13:02 PM »
The trick to nailing the B n Z types, is to carefully conceal your E state. Once you sucker them into a turn fight, their bellybutton is yours :)

Offline poopster

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 800
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2002, 08:26:05 PM »
Dee I think you'd have a hard time implementing "all" of what you propose.

There are somethings that you might get people persuaded on.

Combat trim for example. I can't think of a reason for it. Trimming your plane in a fight is part of learning to fight. It's "part" of flying the plane. Don't see a need for it. Auto takeoff is no biggy and is pretty much a newbie thing. If there was autoland, I'd have a problem.

Conversely "auto" trim is a convience for all those things that take you away from the keyboard. I use it mainly for beer runs :D

Flown a bit of IL-2 online and the absence of auto trim really IS a pain.

One thing that I found when flying IL-2 that WAS immersive was engine management in the most basic form. You had the option of pitch settings but I just left it on auto.

Engine power and cowl flaps. You couldn't fly all day at 100% throttle. You'd overheat. Now it overheated pretty quick but it "added" to the flight. You didn't have to jump through hoops, you just made sure you watched your throttle settings and opened those cowl flaps when the need arose.

If you didn't, the engine after a time didn't sound too good and got progressivly worse, with a loss of power. Wep management became "part" of the fight in the same way manual trim is now. I think that would be a welcome addition with few detractors.

But my God man, I gotta be able to get to my beer ;)

And WBIII has inflight radar in the Main.  With fourteen people flying it's a necessity :D  But I think it's configurable by arena.

That was a low blow....

Baaad poop..
« Last Edit: August 20, 2002, 08:36:36 PM by poopster »

Offline deSelys

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2512
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2002, 02:57:31 AM »
First of all, Toad, why are you torturing us mundane 'crawlers' with your cool pics? You're really cruel ;) .


About all the work involved for a short hop in your plane:

Gee that's too bad. Now you have to work to have fun?? All that seems extremely tiring, particularly the 'drinking beer with friends part'. ;)

On a side note, to help you realize how expensive it is to fly here: an U.S. gallon of air fuel is around 9$. :eek:

So I won't complain you for owning and flying old timers...Bastige! (yeah i'm jealous).

Quote
Originally posted by Toad

Obviously, different people require different levels of immersion. I thought the CT was the place for that? Perhaps you can get some of these things added there?

All joking aside, I think the folks that want this stuff should have a separate arena where this "non-germane immersion detail" is required. No reason why both sides shouldn't have what they desire.


AMEN! If HTC wants to develop the upcoming mission arena like this, I'm 100% for it (and not 110% so I don't shock Samm's opinions ;) ).

Quote
Originally posted by Toad (about qualifying someone else's idea as stupid)

Of course I do. I have the same right to voice my opinion as YOU do. And that IS my opinion.

Probably what angers you is that the opinion disagrees with yours and that I've actually started aircraft engines.... just a guess here.


Maybe I misformulated it: you indeed have the right to say that my ideas are stupid. No big deal. But please make it clear that you're speaking about gameplay and not about 'how things work in RL'

Your guess is wrong (well of course I haven't started aircraft engines). Disagreeing with my ideas is fine.  What made me jump
was your ' the rest of yas that understand what's really going on here', which could imply that

1- what I was saying was technically unsound
or
2- you are some kind of 'gameplay-expert'....which you are not. You like certain aspects, you dislike others....just like me.


Quote
Originally posted by Toad

And when it comes to a vote, I'll vote against drudgery in a game every time... EVERY time. Whether I vote with a ballot or a credit card. :D


It's all relative about what you consider drudgery. I would prefer engine start-up procedure, a bit of navigating,... I would consider having to virtually wash your plane to be utter drudgery.
On the same time, some people would like to have 20 K air starts and 'insta-refuel' bonuses hanging in the air, because having to take-off, climb to the fight and land is absolutely no fun for them. To every his own tastes.

On a side note, why do we have to raise and lower the arrestor hook on the carrier plane by pressing a key? Why isn't it automatically linked to the gear key? Is it drudgery? At the same time, why don't we have to lock the brakes when we retract gear, so the rapidly spinning wheel won't have the tyres damaged? Would it be drudgery?

There is no 'universal' frontier. I understand that, as a RL pilot, what interests you most in this sim is the combat aspect...because you've already done all the rest (mmm...maybe not the carrier landings tho). Please understrand that I would like more of it. Call me a frustrated 'would-like-to-have-been' pilot, I don't care. Not anybody is born with the physical abilities to fly high-performance planes. This is also why those sims have so much success.

Quote
Originally posted by Toad
BTW, just to make your day... here's another one that I do fly a lot more.. it only burns 10 gallons an hour an ... psychoanalyse this for me, will ya? ...... it's MORE FUN than the BT but it's LESS COMPLEX!!!!! Go figure, eh? :D


Hey...it's only normal. If I had the opportunty to fly a WWII warbirds, putting my life on the line, I wouldn't choose the planes with the vicious characteristic like I do now in this sim...No Bf 109, no F4U. I would probably choose something reliable and more user-friendly, like a Spit (not a Gryffon powered!) or a F6F.
In RL I'm a strong adept of the K.I.S.S. principle.


Nopoop, thanks for passing by and dropping a line. I realize that chances are slim that all those suggestions are someday implemented. However, if HTC decides to just change the way WEP works now, I'll already be happy. And if nothing changes, well this thread was a way like another to spend some time.

I just regret that a lot of folks feel obliged to post answers without having read the whole thread. For those who did read all, even if they completely disagree, .

In conclusion, only the WEP feature seems to have some partisans. I would have liked a bit more debate about the radiator feature and the 109 ground handling issue tho.

I'll still have to post as promised an account of flying the 109G10 D-EFHD 'Black 2' by Mark Hanna, then some comments about the 109 by Capt. Eric Brown. After that I'll stop to post here only to answer to people who have obviously read the whole and want to comment.

Thanks for your attention.
Current ID: Romanov

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

'I AM DID NOTHING WRONG' - Famous last forum words by legoman

Offline deSelys

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2512
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2002, 03:04:20 AM »
Mark Hanna:

Taking off:

Power gently up and keep it coming smoothly up to 40 inches. Keep the tail down initially, and keep it straight by feel rather than any positive technique. Tail is coming up now, and the rudder is becoming effective. I'm subconsciously correcting the rudder all the time. It's incredibly entertaining to watch the 109 lift off the ground; the rudder literally flashes around!

This little fighter is now bucketing along, accelerating rapidly. As the tail lifts, there is a positive tendency to swing left. This can easily be checked; however, if you are really aggressive in lifting the tail, the left swing tendency is difficult to stop and happens very quickly. Now the tail is up, and you can vaguely see where you are going. It's a wild, rough ride on grass, and with all the noise and the smoke from the stacks, it's exciting.
Quick glance at the airspeed indicator (ASI): 160km/h, a light pull-back on the stick, and you're flying!

Hand off the throttle, select FLUG on the undercarriage selector. The mechanical indicators motor up very quickly, and you feel and hear a "clonk, clonk" as the gear comes home. A quick look out at the wings, and you can see that the slats-fully out-are starting to creep in as the airspeed increases and the angle of attack is reduced. With 230km/h and an immediate climbing turn-up, you enter the downwind leg just in case you need to put the airplane down in a hurry. The Old Flying Machine Company's SOP is always to fly an orbit overhead of the field to allow everything to stabilize before venturing off; this has saved at least one of our airplanes.

Landing:

Returning to the circuit, it is almost essential to join for a run and break. Over the field, break from 50 feet, up and over with 4G onto the downwind leg. Speed at 250km/h or less, gear select to DOWN, activate the button and feel the gear come down asymmetrically. Check the mechanical indicators (ignore the electric position indicators), set the pitch to 11:30; fuel, both boost pumps ON. If you have less than half a tank of fuel and the rear pump is not on, the engine may stop in the three-point attitude.
Radiator flaps to full open, and wing flaps to 10 or 15 degrees. As the wing passes the threshold downwind, take all the power off and roll into the final turn, cranking the flap like mad as you go. It is important to set up a high rate of descent and a curved approach.
The aircraft is reluctant to lose speed around finals, so ideally, you should initiate the turn quite slowly at about 190 to 200km/h. Slats normally deploy halfway around the final, but you, the pilot, are not aware that they have come out. The idea is to keep turning with the speed slowly bleeding and roll the wings level at about 10 feet at the right speed and just starting to transition to the threepoint attitude. The last speed I usually see is just about 180; I'm normally too busy after that!

The 109 is one of the most controllable aircraft that I have flown at slow speed around finals, and provided you don't get too slow, it is one of the easiest to threepoint. It just feels right. The only problem is getting too slow. If this happens, you very quickly end up with a high sink rate and with absolutely no ability to check or flare to round out. It literally falls out of your hands!
Once down on three points, it tends to stay down, but be careful; the forward view has gone to hell, and you cannot allow any swing to develop. Initial detection is more difficult-the aircraft being completely unpredictable-and can diverge in any direction. Sometimes, the most immaculate three-pointer will turn into a potential disaster halfway through the landing roll. Other times, a ropy landing will roll as straight as an arrow!
When we started flying the 109, both my father and I did a lot of practice circuits on the grass before we tried a paved strip. Operating off grass is preferred. Although it is a much smoother ride on the hard surface-directionally-the aircraft is definitely more sensitive. Without doubt, you cannot afford to relax until you are stationary. You would never make a rolling exit from a runway in the 109.
To summarize, I like the airplane very much, and I can understand why many Luftwaffe aces had such a high regard and preference for it. Hans Dittes has completed a fantastic restoration and should be complimented on returning "Black 2" to the air.


--------------------------------------------------------------

Capt. Eric Brown

COMBAT WARRIOR
THE HISTORICAL VIEW

by Capt. Eric Brown

...Its major design weakness, however, lay in its narrowtrack landing gear, which gave it a tendency to ground-loop; that was exacerbated by the castering of the tailwheel in the ground attitude when the resultant ground loop could not be stopped with harsh braking and full deflection of the rudder. I feel certain, too, that the landing gear's being slightly splayed outward aggravated the ground-looping tendency and contributed to the excessive tire wear and bursts. The Spitfire had a similar, narrow-track landing gear, but it was not splayed out like that of the Bf 109, and the Spitfire didn't show any ground-looping propensities. In 1939, these problems caused damage to 255 Bf 109s (only 14 percent were damaged during training). Sixty-three percent of the damaged aircraft were Emils, and as a result, a tailwheel lock was fitted to later models.
Another problem that arose in training was the difficulty encountered by young, inexperienced pilots in night flying. Owing to the Bf 109's limited forward view and the tendency of its wing slats to snatch in and out near the stall, any flare to land that was held too long and made too high above the ground could result in a wing drop: in severe cases, this could end in a cartwheel when a wingtip dug into the ground.
Because of the frequency of the accidents, a tandem, two-seat, trainer version was eventually developed, and ín mid-1945, I had the opportunity to fly this Bf 109G-12.

Once, I was foolish enough to fly it solo from the rear seat; my view for landing was virtually nil, and I had to make three passes before I arrived back in one piece-and this in broad daylight! This airplane must literally have been an instructor's nightmare because the view from the instructor's cockpit was by a periscopic sight-a case of the blind truly leading the blind...


Synopsis:

The more than 33,000 Bf 109s produced from 1938 to 1945 gave
the Luftwaffe an abundance of continuously updated air weapons. They were capable of beating their implacable enemies, even in the terrible conditions of Russia and North Africa. Many Luftwaffe Bf 109 pilots racked up scores in the hundreds that will dazzle the minds of air historians and fighter buffs for years to come.
But the Bf 109's deficiencies almost equal its fabulous assets. The Luftwaffe lost 11,000 of these thoroughbred fighting machines in takeoff and landing accidents, most of them at the end of the War when they needed them most. The inexcusably poor visibility from the cockpit greatly reduced their pilots' ability to fight. The snatching of the automatic wing slats not only caused many of the numerous ground accidents but also contributed to a great many aerial accidents. The slat, canopy and landing-gear problems all had known, simple production fixes. Perhaps Prof. Willy Messerschmitt and the Luftwaffe generals were too busy patting themselves on their backs and counting Bf 109 victories to find time to listen to the pilots or to digest the significance of the Bf 109's accident rates.
The Bf 109 was, indeed, a prolific, necessary and timely fighter but was not as great as the Spitfire, the Mustang or the Hellcat, which all had many fewer vices for the wartime pilots to overcome.

--------------------------------------------------------------

From 'The Flight Journal', special issue summer 2001 'Fighters'
Current ID: Romanov

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

'I AM DID NOTHING WRONG' - Famous last forum words by legoman

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2002, 07:28:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Gee that's too bad. Now you have to work to have fun??


Well, you wanted to know why I play AH... it's just a whole lot easier and quicker and you can even "fly" it when it's raining. Besides, I don't own a P-51!

...not to mention that they get real upset if you mount .50's on a BT and go shoot folks down...... :D


Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
What made me jump was your ' the rest of yas that understand what's really going on here', which could imply that
[/b]

I agree with the folks that said this is just a subtle attempt to get other folks to fly "your way" by offering.. what was it, a carrot?

Perhaps I should have been more clear about that. Sorry to have offended.

Just about every thing you mentioned can be turned on or off... what a perfect solution! You can fly the way you want to fly.... and so can everyone else!!!

Honestly, I just can't see why anyone would even care if someone else uses auto takeoff. It's not like takeoff is that tough. I can get loaded fighters off a turning carrier... socan just about everyone else; what's the big deal?

Anyway, Easy is just smiling more, so I'm out.

Enjoy the game.. cya up there!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2002, 07:32:25 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Mark Luper

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1626
Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2002, 08:00:36 AM »
In all seriousness deSyles, about the only time I look for the things you are asking for is when I fly FS2002. Even in there I have a couple of keys set up to instantly start or shut down any plane. It is mainly a sim/game I like if I want to immerse myself in the nuances of real flight, like having to navigate. Now, I have an excuse, I am a frustrated pilot.  I have several hours of flight training in various aircraft ( my fav was an Aeronca Champ with no electrics ) but I realised I can't afford to fly the real thing so I fly some really good models in FS2002 (not all are that good, a few are really good).

In here, in Aces High, there are some ways that you can do something similar, just by not using the things you don't want to use. And that's cool! When I come in here it is for simulated air combat without all the worries inherent in having to micromanage a real airplane.

Now when flying buffs, I do enjoy immersing myself in all the possibilities and nuances of real flight, as much as this game allows. Acutally I want more than is available, but when flying a fighter all I'm interested in is going up and finding a good fight without having to worry about the reality of actual plane management. I'm not that good to begin with and adding that to the list would only serve to frustrate me even more.

Why then should I pay my dollars a month to receive less of a score because I use the tools provided to me by the game than someone else who really would like to immerse themselves in making it at hard as possible? To each his own, you have stated your case, I read most of it, it is well written, but I feel you find it hard to accept that most people don't feel about it the way you do.

My main reason in here is to have fun. Do these suggestions increase fun? No, not to me. I like the realism, albeit compromised for the sake of "gameplay", that we do have. Does micromanagement increase the realism? Probably, but at a cost to "fun" so it ceases to be something I would want too much of.

When I want to releive my frustrations at not being a "real" pilot I will fly my FS2002 (which has it's own compromises too), if I want to have some "different" fun, flying a combat sim, I come here.

Several in this thread have essentially stated the same thing. I am just one more trying to answer the question you asked with the title. You have my answer. I do not feel ill will towards you or your way of thinking, but please allow me to do as I would want to do too and without it costing me anything.
MarkAT

Keep the shiny side up!