109's getting you down too?

[SpinDoc1]

Ok, so I'm trying to learn the 109 G10 and have received some very helpful advice from Wilbus so far. But today I had something interesting happen. I fought Cavalear (excellent pilot, !) in his F4u-1 and Myself in the 109 G10. After a 10 minute dogfight from 25k to 15k feet, the fight got lower and eventually he wrapped me up with 2 of his buds and I died. Smart move and he won some points, now here's where the problem exists. When we initially engaged, I tried using the 109's vertical advantage and couldn't seem to outturn or outclimb him. Upon talking to him afterward, he said that he used flat merges to make me lose speed and for him to keep his. So how did I lose that E so fast? What are some smart initial merge moves that I can do to maximize the potential of this beast? Also, I started experimenting with trim lately and have been fairly successful in making smooth flights and aiding in my instantaneous turn rate. Should I bother with trim or is auto combat trim "good enough" for most people I will fight? All comments welcome, thanks!

Jason

[F4UDOA]

Heya dude,

I am a F4U-1 pilot and also a squaddy of Cavaliers. I can tell you this, He Cheats!! Just kidding, he is an awesome pilot. Actually he is normally in a Hellcat but I guess it was in the shop for repairs.

Anyway I don't know what he means by a flat merge. What I can tell you is this. Using virtical maneuvers at high alt. is a very difficult thing to do even with a G10. And even though the F4U is slower than the G10 it has the advantage of high speed mauverability as well as the abilty to dive away without fear of compression. Having flown both allot I would reccomend taking a very aggressive approach in your attack. Press the attack even at the loss of E.

Why? You have as your best advantage in your ability to regain your E quickly and accelerate through a turn which the F4U-1 will usually stall out of.  Then using climbing turns you can gain advantage that he cannot follow you through.  

So make the F4U loose E at all costbecause he cannot regain it easily. At high speeds he holds all the cards and the most you can do is run or climb away if you have enough seperation.  

This will not work with a F4U-4 as he is as fast and can climb as well while still having high speed manuverabilty.

good luck!!

[Urchin]

I'm not quite sure what he means by 'flat merges' either.  Typically if someone is going up and down constantly, by making hammerheads or some variation of, they are pretty easy to 'lead turn' as they top out, then start to come back down.  If two planes engage in a 'zooming contest', typically the first one to point the nose up will top out first.  This is assuming both planes have roughly the same energy at the beginning of the zoom.  So if a plane is 1.5 ahead of me or so, and trying to do hammerheads, I'll follow him up if I know I have enough speed.  I won't usually go for the shot as he tops out and comes back down though.  I'll aim off to one side while we are climbing, then as he tops out and begins to come back down, you begin a vertical 'lead turn' which should leave you closer than where you started.  I'll try to post a little diagram, everyone knows what a good artist I am .

Ok, I'll try to actually put the description in the picture, so it makes more sense.

[Virage]

So how did I lose that E so fast?

109 does not hold E/speed well while manuevoring.  When going for E moves, be very gentle with little or no stall buzzer.

Also, high alt fights (over 20k) require a gentle touch in all moves.  Steep loops and hi alt don't mix either.

What are some smart initial merge moves that I can do to maximize the potential of this beast?

Know the difference between climbing and Zooming.  Climbing is used to build an E advantage, zooming is used to cash in the E advantage in a Rope the dope manuevor or to gain significant alt advantage.

A typical beginning move is to start a climb after the pass by holding the 109 at its optimum climb angle.  As speed bleeds to ~ 200, reverse direction and dive back toward the trailing bogey without getting below him.  Then initiate a zoom at the next head to head pass.  

Zoom is only to be done with a speed advantage and preferably after the bogey has started his zoom to meet u.  ie  he who starts zooming first ends zooming first.  If bogey follows u up watch and wait for ur chance to pounce on him.

The trick to handling 109 at top of zoom is to use ailerons to hold wings where u want them,  but let the nose fall on its own without much if any elevator.  You can get under 100mph at the top this way.  Once nose is past horizon, pull hard to get it down.  
 

Should I bother with trim or is auto combat trim "good enough" for most people I will fight?

use autotrim.. but anticipate up elevator trim when over 425 mph.

[Urchin]

Fighting in the 109 is a little different from fighting in other planes.  The 109 has tremendous acceleration (second only to the la7) and awesome climbing ability.  It also has good turning ability, which a lot of people don't take advantage of.  On the downside, it is horrible high speed handling, so it is very hard to "BnZ" with it.  

I guess I fight a hybrid style of E-fighting and turnfighting in the 109s.  You use your acceleration and climbing ability to get above the opponent.  Then you use the turning ability to stay behind him and get a shot.  If he dives, you don't follow him, you climb or stay level.  Once he quits diving, you work your way down behind him again.  If he turns, you turn with him, if you get in trouble you climb away.  Once a 109 get saddled up on a P-51 or La7, or anything less manueverable than that, they will have a very tough time shaking you off.  By saddled up I mean distance is less than 400 yards and speed is approximately the same.  The only real way to shake a 109 then is to go into a high speed dive, then start manuevering.  Even then all the 109 has to do is stay above you and climb once you start manuevering, then drop back down onto your 6.

[humble]

You cant lose E vs a "flat merge" if that means the bogie initiates a turn purely in the horizontal at the merge. since a purley flat turn is the the least efficient way to reverse. All you'd need to do is go vertical on the merge and the games over. Now if by a flat merge...he means he blew thru your merge then you would need to reverse direction to "chase" him and would expend energy. I agree the Cav is an excellent stick and I might be missing something here. But he didn't "suck your E" with a flat turn on the merge in a -1 hog. You may have responed to the merge wrong and he capitalized, but thats about the worst "opener" there is in a co-e merge. There has to be something your leaving out. The 109 G10 will own the -1 1 vs 1...period. Now the hog can win easily if the pilot is better...but a G-10 will control that fight from the opening bell...only way the hog wins is if the G10 driver makes a mistake.

[214thCavalier]

OK to clarify somewhat, but first i have to say F4UDOA you Bastige stop telling em how to win

On to the point perhaps it will make more sense in type than trying to explain in text buffer.

F4U-1 accelerates like a turd in level flight, so at alt i am extremely careful keeping it, yes you can generate speed very quickly with a dive.

But saying i was doing a flat merge is not really correct, 1st merge we both blew thru seeing what other would do, the 109 extended and grabbed high while i did a low G climbing turn to the right when speed dropped to 250 i would continue the turn towards the 109 but now slightly down to rebuid some speed but having gained some alt as well ( think Hi yoyo).

Now we come to the part i tried to describe as a flattish merge.

I was not concerned with the alt advantage the 109 had at any point as long as i had speed to combat it with.
When we started merging again usually both aircraft keep turning into each other until they basically have the start of a HO situation, (you have all seen this many  times) but i was trying to use the merge to suck the 109's speed and hence manouverability at alt and i definitely did not want to merge with the 109  directly above me.

So when merging top priority was keep my speed at 300 or better and keep an offset to the 109 of around  20 to30 degrees during the merge phase, so 109 is merging 30 degrees right of my 12 just where i want him this is usually just enough to tempt them to try and pull for a shot, which of course is exactly what i want, just watch his nose attitude and keep outa his sights small corrections if needed when he passes your 3-9 line i did a gentle low G turn to the right for approx 45 degrees trying to tempt the 109 into continuing his turn before extending and reversing repeating the process, a lot of people spits etc will keep pulling the turn and making things worse for themselves in the process.
Anyway from memory after 2 or 3 of these i felt confident enough of my E state v the 109's to go over the top of the 109 and landed some hits, during the fight i took 1 ping no damage, at 1 point i had to dive away as he got too close and after grabbing again to near coalt we merged  again and continued the fight, from here memory fails me as to how we ended up at sea level but 2 team members were calling my 6 saying they were coming so being in a benevolent mood (alright Skeered)  I duly dragged him along in a slow right turn the 109 slowly gaining on me until at approx 800 yds he received a hot enema courtesy of an eager Knit who got an assist, my earlier hits getting me the kill.

Hope that explains better what i meant by flatter merge in relation to the 109's.
One day i will remember to turn the recorder on, but that will be the day i get repeatedly killed

was fun.

[humble]

Thanks for chipping in Cav...I'm a bit curious. To me the G10 has almost all the options vs a -1 hog. The G10 is faster in level flight. Will climb better, accelerate better and is not overwelmingly outclassed in a turn accept at higher speeds where the combat flaps of the hog really will help it...correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

To me it sounds like you flew good E tactics while minimizing any angles loss and then blew your E on a 1 timer when you felt it appropriate. Obviously you picked a good setup and scored some solid hits...but didn't have the E left to finish...so you had to go back defensive while rebuilding your E state.  A friendly showed up before E state and circumstances allowed you to go on offense again so you set up a drag for other guy.

My comment regarding this in light of original post is simply that better tactics (and pilot) beat the better plane here. From your side it sounds like the G10 had a chance to dance on your head early and committed to a fight on your terms...so you pushed things. Had he stayed high and fought you in the vertical I think you'd of broken off...obviously he'd of had a hard time forcing an engagement with your E state...but you'd have little in the way of offensive options.  

Lazymon, to me you flew a "tweener" not "safe enough" to call a B&Z...not aggresive enough to capitalize on the situation. It sounds like you were positive alt and maybe positive E on the remerge. Cav sucked you in and got a solid snap shot on the reverse (3-4 moves in) but not a kill. I'd bet he committed on the belief that he'd cripple or kill you...since he didn't and you ended up back on his 6 later it sounds like he forced an overshoot (he mentions his 3-9 line earlier) but didn't have enough E to keep his guns solution for long. Since he mentioned he didn't want to remerge with you "directly" over him...I'm guessing he sucked you into a nose down shot on the remerge and kept his tail dangling till he felt he could reverse into your nose down attack. I'd almost bet right before he hit you you were behind and above him...you attacked he used his rudder to dance out of the way and nail you as you went buy...your attack puts you under him as he pulls up and into you to deny the angle. As a general rule never dive under the con for a shot, fight from the top down. Once you go under the con your fighting your own E state as you pull back up...so your bleeding E badly at the same time your turn rate is hampered. The Hog and F6 have tremendous rudder authority and excel at this defensive move.

[Kweassa]

Judging by what Cav wrote, it sounds like something I have described before in this thread .

 The Bf109G-10, no matter how you look at it, is a tremendous plane. Only a few handful perked planes will have a decisive 'edge' over it. Otherwise, it can easily be branded as a "dweeb fighter" just like any other plane lest for the fact that the drawbacks on the 109 makes it somewhat difficult for inexperienced pilots to score kills in. Considering the La-7 has decisive advantages only under 10k, I'd say the AH G-10, (which is virtually a pseudo-K-4) is a better fighter than the La-7.

 Fly it agressively. The E you lose is easily compensated by just levelling the plane and engaging the incredible MW50. Urchin's right when he says it is a "hybrid" style of fighter. For a pure BnZ fighter, the G-10 just lacks too much in high speed maneuvering. Unlike the P-51D, the advantage in E and alt cannot be directly transferred into an advantage in combat.

 Thus, use its ability to accelerate and climb as a back-up plan, and mix up agressively with your target.

 Unless it isn't someone like whels or Cav in a F4U-1, I'd say the F4U is practically dead if it is going to face a G-10 one-on-one.

[214thCavalier]

Hmm well memory kinda hazy about it now first part you got right i was never gonna fight him vertical unless it suited me, he was never gonna be allowed to get anywhere near directly above me i woulda bugged out and once when i got low on E i did just that then re engaged about 4 mins later.
I always had an escape route v a 109 anyway dive and if pushed roll at speed, also never forget if pushed to it the F4U's can drop those speed brakes and flaps and lose speed real  fast looking for an overshoot.
I never defeated him with any rudder rolls etc simply because damn things are broken having to adjust to no rudder fighting until they fixed (hopefully next week).
It was a large plan view shot when i sparked him up by doing a  vertical over the top and i was surprised not to see any smoke or parts dropping off  from memory i think he went for a  vertical reverse and i just knew i had enuf E to beat him at it if carefully done, but you are correct at this point i needed to grab some E back before continuing fight.

[Holden McGroin]

DaLadyzMon;

Always keep this in mind if you try to E fight.   The current E your A/C has, is very important, but really only indirectly.  It is directly the E difference between you and your opponent that is of greatest importance.

If your opponent has more E, then you must manuver to equalize E.  If you have more E or can build E faster, then your goal is ensure that your opponent loses E as fast or faster than you do.

I call it putting E in my pocket.  If I have more E then I can win.

The other fellas covered tactics, I have one more thing you should remember.  It is a quote from a famous German Ace.  It goes something like this "Your opponent must first be beaten, and then shot".

This means be patient, grind him down, then waste that slippery Cavalier next time.

[MANDOBLE]

IMO, G10 depends totally on acceleration at low speeds. It cant fight against anything faster than 350 mph, it is a stone at 400 mph. So, even being a very fast plane, it is good only for fighting at a very limited range of speeds. Basically, if u keep fast (> 300 mph), the G10 will have little or no chance at all to touch u.

[Eagler]

park the g10

grab an 109F with 50% fuel and beat him at his own game

w/gonds if you can turn with em

[humble]

thanks again, I have a hard time "seeing" what happened here. A high pos E 109 engaging a lower alt hog. After multiple merges and a "mid-game" you go vertical for a solid semi tracking shot...basically I'm guessing he simply flew out of range as you hung..or you'd of killed him. In my mind he had to be going high to low and you pulled up into or over him...anyway I hate all you guys with the slick moves anyway:D

Lazymon, best thing to do is what you did...ask. I remember way back when one guy just hosed me all the time. I'd repeatedly see him flashing by my front quarter just off of headon going straight up thru the merge. Years later Iknow it was just a classic vertical lead turn from the oblique (straight from rocketman). Anyway ran into Hardrock and got dusted 10-12 straight...but got little bits and pieces after each. Started seeking him and a few others out. Ran into the original SOB bout a month later and waxed him...seems he only had that one sweet opener:). Guess it all comes down to paying your dues. As a side note film your 1 on 1's while your getting up to speed.

[SpinDoc1]

Humble, hehe, you keep calling me lazymon... I'm SpinDoc in the Main Arena, though. Thanks for everyone's advice so far. I think I lost a lot of concentration in this fight. I took the advice of Wilbus and started playing with trim, unfortunately I wasn't prepared to fight with it yet, I had enough trouble mapping it to the stick and then learning to use it effectively... To make a long story shirt, Cav is a great pilot, but I also lost significant turn and SA advantages by using trim for the first time. Since then I've turned the Auro Trim back on (I'm a wimp, right?). I think I prefer American planes and the 190's as a second choice, so I'll stick to them. Thanks for the advice though, you are all really great guys!

Jason