Author Topic: Suicide, Kamakazies, and Rammkommando Elbe  (Read 368 times)

Offline Golfer

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Suicide, Kamakazies, and Rammkommando Elbe
« on: February 18, 2003, 06:35:23 AM »
I posted this in another thread, but it really didnt go with it and couldn't really classify it. So for those who might be interested in avoiding the other jibberjbber...here's the posting.





"there is no racial bigotry here..."

"...you are all equally worthless."

R. Lee Ermey as Gunnery Sergeant Hartmann, Full Metal Jacket.


I may not share that exact view, and also do my very very best not to group folks into one pool or another. And its not really a bad idea to do the same. Here's why:

As of late i have been trying to decide and understand why someone would take on a mission that will result with 100% efficency their death. Reading documents including Diaries, and interviews with kamakazie pilots, and even german and russian suicide pilots (i saw a promo piece for something on the history channel that will air this week i believe, dont have lots of time to watch t.v.) and their reasons for taking on said mission.

In a nearly 100% concensus, these individuals (men and women, some may know while most do not there was a german female squadron commander and test pilot for suicide planes [hows that for a job??] named Hannah Reich) had a total committment to their cause. Most people today havent any clue what that kind of conviction feels like, to feel so strongly for a cause you will strap on an airplane, or the cheaper method of a bomb, and set out to do the most damage with little more than a will to die. Some of you may have seen this in Vietnam, where sappers were used (though i do not know to what extent, and have no figures) to blow up command tents, and ammo bunkers. Others, we read about it in the newspaper about the Palestine and Isreali situation thats been ongoing since the dawn of their respective religions. While all (and i have no doubt that all reading this post) have witnessed either firsthand or via video the September 11th attacks. Its insane to us, and to me as well which is why I am trying to learn why they do it to maybe even take away that cause. Very few if any of you myself included, have ever felt such conviction to a cause to resort to such an action (or be as heroic, as they see themselves). What needs to be looked into is how to take the romance, if you will, out of being a suicide soldier (of whatever cause) and convey it as an act of hopelessness whos mere implication or indoctrinaion only solidifies one's own causes defeat. A counterargument is "well if they're defeated, die fighting" or "take as many out with me as possible". While that may ring true with many cases, for example if the enemy of the suicide soldier's cause was some sort of evil regime. What is our responsibility to convey is that we aren't some evil force hell bent on conquering the world through military means. We believe in making money, saving lives, and feeling good about ourselves. I firmly believe that we as Americans would use our right to take our grievances to our government and if necessary impeach (yup, we Americans can civilly oust our leaders without a military coux) the president at the time if he wanted to steer America on the manifest destiny from hell. If we were given a chance, I think that what we would do (sticking to the Make money, save lives, and patting ourselves on the back) is somehow devise a way to democritize these countries and use the resources available to get them working to a greater good (i think i heard the response World Peace at the miss usa pageant, can anyone confirm?).

I'll just say that I as an American, and can and will speak for every American (ready your flamethrowers gents, and i'll break out the marshmallows) and say...

"I have no interest in making any other country an exclave of the United States, Enslaving any other cultures, or taking any Imperialistic measures in order to expand the United States."

laymans terms...

"I don't want your land, your god, or your home"

(Vote USgolfer, 2020)

Offline Seeker

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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2003, 06:59:50 AM »
90% of Victoria Crosses are awarded postmortem; although I'd imagine most of the reciprients thought they had at least a chance (however slim) of survival.

It's not a religious/cultural thing, it's a human one.

Otherwise no sane man would go to war in the first place.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2003, 07:18:11 AM »
I'm not so sure. Alot of the CMOH's awarded in ww2 were to people throwing themselves on grenadesto save their buddies.

Offline Golfer

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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2003, 11:02:26 PM »

Offline wulfie

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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2003, 12:47:44 AM »
In my book there's a distinct difference between 'suicide bombers' (including the murderers of 9/11/01) and Japanese pilots on 'kamikaze' missions: One are terrorists who target innocents, the other are military personnel willing to die to destroy enemy military personnel, equipment, etc.

Terrorist suicide bombers don't deserve to be grouped in the same company as 'kamikaze' pilots. Suicide bombers are not brave in my opinion - they're indoctrinated to the point of insanity and pointed at women and children. Big difference between that and deciding you're willing to fly into an enemy warship.

There was no romance for 'kamikaze pilots'. Their Nation was on the verge of defeat and as members of that Nation's military they felt obligated to do whatever necessary to prevent defeat (and assumed destruction of their Nation, culture, etc.). Those Palestinians who strap a bomb on and 'bravely' target a bus, or a resaurant, or who 'bravely' infiltrate a suburban area to gun down little boys reading a bedtime book with Mom are under no such pressure. If Israel wanted to wipe the Palestinian people off the face of the earth tomorrow it could be done. Also, if their fellow Arabs truly gave a damn about the Palestinians (instead of seing them as expendable proxy forces for use vs. 'the hated jews') they could improve their living conditions 100x very easily and very cheaply.

If I met the Japanese pilot who volunteered for a Kamikaze mission and his aircraft engine failed, I'd respect his commitment to his duty towards his country, even though I'm in the U.S. armed forces and he was trying to kill U.S. personnel. While an enemy in wartime, he's not breaking any of the 'laws of humanity' in my book.

If I met some brainwashed kid who failed to detonate his bomb on board a bus full of school kids...well...being disciplined I'd turn him in for interrogation if possible. But I'd spend alot of nights thinking about what he really deserves.

The 'solution' to suicide bombing is to kill the experts who run the machine. There is no unlimited supply of such experts. The average # of years of 'experience' among terrorist cell leaders has been steadily declining since the end of the cold war (not as many secure training patrons and training areas). The time will come when the support personnel (people who conduct fraud and scams to generate $$$ for terrorist operations, people who can keep up with cutting edge ID data to forge IDs, people who can accquire explosives and make relaible, super-effective bombs, etc.) are almost wiped out...if the pressure is kept up. Lost in the media assault on Israel is the fact that they have killed or captured alot of very well known and very dangerous terrorists in the past 5-7 years.

It's no different than attrition in warfare. By 1945 the LW was almost out of experienced, competent fighter pilots. Experienced terrorists don't grow on trees. They need training, and they need to survive operations to learn from mistakes.

Ah, sorry to wander all over with the reply. :)

In short -

Kamikaze pilots = enemy combat pilots with serious dedication
Suicide bombers/people who support suicide bombing = refuse in need of disposal, after questioning if possible

Also, suicide tactics are generally not a good idea. Japan went to Kamikaze tactics because they had no other real choice. But losing a trained pilot *for certain* to get a *chance* and damaging, and maybe sinking an enemy warship - bad trade there.

However, if the Allies went for invading the Japanese home islands, I think that Kamikaze wave that they 'saved up for' (what was it? More than 2,500 aircraft and pilots for use in one big wave if memory serves) would have been horrific.

Mike/wulfie
« Last Edit: February 19, 2003, 12:51:55 AM by wulfie »

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2003, 03:29:00 AM »
What about the suicide rubber boat attack on the USS Cole, Wulfie? Suicide bomber against a military target - surely the same as Kamikaze.

By the way, didn't 11 Victoria Crosses get awarded at Rourke's Drift - and I think many of the recipients were still alive.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline wulfie

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Suicide, Kamakazies, and Rammkommando Elbe
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2003, 03:59:53 AM »
Well Dowding I hope you appreciate this response because it's leaving me wide open for misquoting or an argument I don't have the free time to 'finish' (because it would take a long time to type).

The guys who attacked the U.S.S. Cole are terrorists. They were not uniformed members of a Nation's military who is currently 'at war' with the U.S.A.

Having said that, if there were 10 levels of Hell I'd hope they stopped at level 8 when I sent them there, as opposed to level 10 which is where the 'brave' souls who target Women and Children go in my opinion.

Let me put it another way - if they were captured before they reached their target, they would not be protected by the 'rules of warfare', such as they are.

But there's an important question I need to ask you. Do you think they would have accepted their mission if it involved bombing a U.S. cruise ship in the same manner?

Considering they are operatives of a terrorist organization, I think they would have.

So while they did not attack innocent noncombatants in that case, I have no doubt they would have if ordered to based on their 'employer'. They don't get the benefit of the doubt with me.

So while their actions may have been equal to the actions of Kamikaze pilots in terms of target and it being a suicide attack...morally I still don't find them to be equals.

Mike/wulfie

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2003, 04:19:01 AM »
I appreciate your point. I've always found how we define a soldier, interesting. Particularly when soldiers are often responsible for the very same acts that would be considered 'terrorism' if not for the uniform. As though being part of an organised military aspect of a nation somehow lessons the barbarity of the action.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2003, 04:21:12 AM »
Well, I think it has to do with the fact that if you are wearing a uniform or a clear marking, the other side can see you coming...if you know what I mean.

That is why spies can be executed...because they disguise themselves. Same with terrorists really. If they started wearing some terrorist uniform, they would probably be considered combatants, and thus they would be protected by the laws of war.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2003, 04:30:03 AM »
The Taliban wore uniforms, but were not given POW status.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2003, 04:41:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
The Taliban wore uniforms, but were not given POW status.

LOL a couple of rags doesnt count as a uniform.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2003, 04:53:24 AM »
I didn't realise we had a resident military dress expert. Mea culpa.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2003, 06:13:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
The Taliban wore uniforms, but were not given POW status.


Careful, a lot of work was put into making that little fact not count in the Taliban's case.

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline wulfie

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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2003, 07:53:53 AM »
Actually, effectively the Taliban guys were given (better than) POW status.

The vast majority of the Taliban were 'fellow Afghans', and as such...after some quick questioning they were usually released to go home. It's part of the whole "we are all serving Afghan warlords" culture over there.

Basically, if Taliban guys surrendered, once turned over to the N. Alliance they were usually sent home or recruited into the N. Alliance. The cases where they weren't were when they fought for a warlord who was a little too 'cozy' with Al-Q.

But from the perspective of the 'good guys' Taliban fighters were considered enemy soldiers. Al-Q operatives weren't.

If there were instances of Taliban 'soldiers' being mistreated, it was never by non-Afghans and when they were mistreated it usually was caused by 10+ years of 'bad blood' and the Taliban 'soldiers' (i.e. fighters under a warlord in the service of the Taliban) having the bad luck of being 'captured by the wrong guy'.

I saw alot of 'Taliban soldiers' sent packing back to their respective village areas with a smile and a pat on the back from guys they were fighting a week earlier.

A very weird place sometimes. :)

Mike/wulfie

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2003, 08:00:05 AM »
Wulfie...what is your take on the info that Iraq has smallpox?