Historical Squadrons...?

[Grissom]

Now I know I have seen two different LW squads in the CT recently.  Are these squads just not large enough, or (no dissrespect intended) caught up in their own 'thing' that they are a LW squad in name only?

Case in point: (again no disrespect) 418 Squadron RCAF, in AH is a combination of two RCAF squads from the game.  Now I did have some misunderstanding with a few of these guys due in large part to my ignorance of what they'd done.

The real 418 Squadron RCAF "City of Edmonton", was the TOP MOSSIE squadron of the war.  They went on to distinguish themselves further throughout the later years, earning a rather impressive list of accolades.

That's where my misunderstanding came in with the AH squad of similar name, and which brings me to the point of this posting...

If you create a historical squadron, would you dissrespect, or otherwise demean those heroes by not remaining faithful to the represented squadron?  Of course in AH, you'll never be able to fly most of nearly any squadron's main rides unless in the MA.  Even then, HTC may not have enabled those particular planes for the CT, or the planes in question, such as the planes the real 13th Sentai flew, are not in AH's planeset yet.

Okay.  Now I'll confine myself to the CT Arena because that's where I see the benefit of a historical squadron: Not everyone can fly their squadron iron all the time because of the dynamic nature of the CT.  Arenas change weekly, as do planesets and era of combat.  So we find the USAAF 325th flying Japanese fighters on occaission, and the Jabostaffle guys flying USN iron and a whole mix-mash of weirdness going on.  

But this is to be expected in any game as fluid as AH is.  So the question needing to be clarified IMO is; Why create it, if you're not going to remain faithful to the memory of the originals?

Yeah, yeah.  Get off my soapbox already. I just find it odd, and my oldman mind is stuck in a rut.  Someone care to help me out of it?

[Jester]

Hey Grissom, Check out my post over in the "NEW SQUAD FORMING" thread.

Oberstlt. Jester
Adjutant, JG-3 UDET

[JB42]

Hey Griss, the only time you will find the Jabostaffel in allied planes is if its a Pac map and we agree to fly USN. If the CT map has LW iron in it, we fly it only. Even in the MA, we fly only LW.

[Dennis]

I have a similar take as Grissom's on the re-creation of historic squads in this game.  I also recall a thread along the same lines in one of the other folders about taking names of actual WWII aces as callsigns.  

A lot of animosity was stirred up, so I hope not to go there with this ... It's just food for thought.  I'm not advocating that anyone change.  I suppose you can do what you want in a game.  It's a game.

There's an interesting parallel here to my other hobby, Civil War re-enacting.  Back when I got started, virtually all re-enactment units were based on historic ones.  The one I joined was Co. A, 5th Missouri Infantry (CSA).  Well, most of us lived in central and west-central Missouri, and the vast majority of the events we took part in were in this region.  

Thing is, the 5th Missouri Infantry fought EAST of the Mississippi River.  Unless we went to an event at, say, Corinth, Port Hudson, Vicksburg, Kennesaw Mountain, Franklin, etc, we would never get to portray our unit.  We were always portraying other troops.  

In fact, going to one of those events didn't guarantee we'd walk in the footsteps of our namesakes.

As our knowledge of the unit improved and we more-accuratly conformed our uniforms, equipment and drill to that of the historic 5th Missouri ... we became even more out of place west of the river.  (I'll spare you the detailed history lesson there for brevity).

The point is, we were the 5th Missouri Infantry in name only. It wasn't long before I was wondering what the point was.  Not only that, but the 5th Missouri (and the Missouri Brigade to which it belonged) were some damn fine combat troops.  We re-enactors, while no slouches on the drill field, sucked in comparison.  Something of an insult, I felt.

So what did we do?   Well there are still plenty of groups out there calling themselves by historic names.  But there are a growing number who literally make up names -- names that SOUND like they could have been around in the era (Southern Guard; Skulkers Mess; Liberty Rifles; 1st Battalion, Army of the Trans-Mississippi) but are more generic in nature.  Most of these groups are more wrapped up in presenting an accurate portrayal of history at each individual event -- adapting their uniforms, tactics, etc. to the scenerio -- rather than clinging to an identity that's out of place 99 percent of the time.

There doesn't seem to be any reason that sort of movement couldn't take hold in the history-based arenas of AH.

Other than personal preference.  Which returns me to Paragraph 2.

Splash1

[Grissom]

Thanks for all the come-backs.

I definetly do not want to step on anyone's toes!  

Like JB42 and Splash1 said (more or less), It is your dime and far be it from me to tell you how to spend it.  Hell, I get my wife to do all the $$$ figuring around the household as it is.  Of course she can tell me how to spend my dimes, but that's a different story.

Dennis:  That's facinating about your CSA unit.  My brother in law is with the Massachusetts brigade (don't ask I forget) and was in both of Turner's recent productions as an extra.  In fact, he's in a couple of paintings from the same era.  One of which his unit/troop(?) is charging across a stone bridge and there he is just top of center and big as life.  

I do a little Cowboy Action shooting with SASS and WASA on the local tri-state area.  Older age being what it is, I can't get the energy to go running across fields and up hills anymore. hehe.

JB42: No offense meant.  I couldn't remember the other squads name and I've seen you JB guys around so much that it was the first straw I grabbed for.  Sorry if it caused any confusion.

Andij:  I'll check it out right after I post this.

Thanks all
Haven

[Jester]

DENNIS!

Ex- Co. G, C.S. Marines here.  HOORAH!  

There was never a "Company G" in the C.S.M.C. but was do to be formed in the Trans-Mississippi area. For reasons due to the war it was never formed.

We did as your bunch and worked more on being "Generic" Confederate Marines that could fit in anywhere.

[Dennis]

Originally posted by Andijg
DENNIS!

Ex- Co. G, C.S. Marines here.  HOORAH!  ...

... We did as your bunch and worked more on being "Generic" Confederate Marines that could fit in anywhere.

Aye, but there's the rub.  Could Confederate Marines really fit in anywhere?  A quick check of a few random O.O.B.s, and they don't frequently pop up.  And that limitation, in a nutshell, is the corollary with historic squad names in this game.

But to borrow from "Seinfeld" ....  

Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Splash1

[Jester]

Ask the Yankees at Drewry's Bluff, VA about the C.S.M.C.

Their land batteries pounded the HELL out of a Union fleet that was trying to force it's way up the James River sinking several and even forceing the famed ironclad MONITOR back.

The C.S. Marines we active all along the East Coast from Virginia to Mobile, on the inland rivers and on the High Seas with the raiders. They took part in many land engagements.

[Dennis]

Originally posted by Andijg
The C.S. Marines we active all along the East Coast from Virginia to Mobile, on the inland rivers and on the High Seas with the raiders. They took part in many land engagements.

Roger that.  
It was nice to have a contingent of Marines at Ft. Blakely, Ala., for an event a few years back.

But were they to show up in their Marine duds at a reenactment of a land engagement where they werent present, they get laughed at.  Don't scoff.  It happens.  With alarming regularity.  Marines.  Sailors. "Engineers", "Brady's Sharpshooters", Zouaves.  I've seen it all.

The truth is, Confederate Marines -- even 'generic' ones -- don't fit in just anywhere.  Nor do reb infantry geared to look like those in the Army of Mississippi or federals as Army of the Tennessee. (although the latter two are at least marginally more 'generic' in apparance, for sure.)

[Correct me if I'm mistaken.  But the only Marine reenactors I've seen had the regulation dress;  inverted chevrons & such.  Did you guys just equip yourselves as regular infantry?]

But I apologize.  I really didn't mean to shoot off on a tangent here.  My point was simply that locking oneself into a specific, historic unit when recreating a far more widely ranging event -- be it America's Civil War or WWII -- seems, well, confining.

But that's just my unique take on the phenomenon.  No biggie.  And no disrespect intended.

Splash1

[Karnak]

Grissom,

When the setup has Japanese aircraft in it the 13th Sentai flies Japanese exclusively.

We'd love to have the Ki.44, Ki.84 and even the old dog of the Ki.43, but they simply haven't been added yet.  Even when they are there will still be times when we must fly A6M2s, A6M5bs or Ki.67s.

[Arlo]

100% behind ya in their getting added, though, Karnak. Maybe some different skins on them carriers too.

[Jester]

Inverted chevrons, frock coats, kepi's with the correct color blue trim (different from Army Infantry), short "Navalized" Enfields with the sword bayonet - whole 9 yards.

You DO NOT reenact a Marine unless it is 100% correct.  

Understand what you mean. JG-3 UDET also flys only German planes when they are available and then only the ones the real JG-3 flew - the Me-109 & FW-190.
We fly Japanese in the PTO set-ups just to help out the CT when our birds are not available. There always seems to be more than enough Allied so we fly Axis.

Hauptman Jester
Adjutant, Jagdgeschwader 3 "UDET"
WEBSITE: http://www.geocities.com/jagd3udet

[Makofan]

When I was leading the 308 RAF Sqn in the CT last year, I received a lot of flak every single time I flew, because we were flying British planes (Mossies, Hurri's Spits).  The reason for the flak was side balance.  Some names I respected very much (trainers and CMs) would verbally abuse me for flying Allied when the numbers weren't even.

The reason I joined an RAF squad was to fly RAF planes (my Dad and Granddad were in the RAF).  Are you saying that if I now "gave in" and flew Axis to keep the balance whiners happy that I was disrespecting the squadron?

It was for these "can't win" problems that I quit the game - it was not an enjoyable environment to fly in.

[Grissom]

From the original question?

The more I play the game, the more I learn of its dynamics.  Hence I withdraw my original question on Historical squadrons.

Thanks for the input folks.

*S*

Haven

[oboe]

You did preface you rquestion with "nodisrespect intended", so I never had a problem with it.

FWIW, another point of view is from the actual pilots/members of the squadrons being protrayed.  I know of at least one case where the actual members asked specifically NOT to have their Bomber Group protrayed in Warbirds - since Warbirds was just a game, they felt it demeaned the memory and sacrifice of those who died in combat.    I was thankful to see the Warbird's squad leader honor their request.

Others I think are glad to see the memory of their unit being kept alive by people who have some idea of what they accomplished.

Makofan, sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the CT.