Author Topic: zero tolarance policies  (Read 416 times)

Offline capt. apathy

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zero tolarance policies
« on: October 28, 2003, 11:32:51 PM »
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Brandon Kivi, 15, was suspended from Caney Creek High (Conroe, Texas) in October for possibly saving the life of his girlfriend (a fellow classmate) by lending her his asthma inhaler after she had misplaced hers; that was delivery of a dangerous drug. [North Texas Daily-AP, 10-10-03]

 Raylee Montgomery, 13, was suspended from school in Duncanville, Texas, in September when her shirttail became untucked, a violation of the dress code (raising the number of dress-code-caused suspensions in her 3,500-student school to more than 700 in just five weeks).
 [Dallas Morning News, 9-29-03]


in previous posts, some have said they thing these 'zero tolorance' policies are a good thing,  I think they are just a cop-out from school officials so they can avoid having to make a decision.  if they refuse to make any judgement calls then they can't get blamed for making bad calls, I supose.  some may call it wise, I call it chickentoejam.

Offline Sandman

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zero tolarance policies
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2003, 12:43:14 AM »
Yeah... damn chickentoejam Texans...


sand

Offline Mathman

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zero tolarance policies
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2003, 12:48:43 AM »
At my school, a zero tolerance policy means that the student could ultimately be expelled for violation of a specific violation of some very specific rules and incidents.  Keep in mind that suspension is not the same as expulsion and that any academic work that a student misses while on suspension for a disciplinary matter is allowed to be made up (i.e. missing tests and homework while not in school).  Typically, a student is suspended pending a review and hearing of the incident.  The review involves investigation of the actual incident and any relevant information concerning the student (such as being a special ed student and if there i a causal relationship between it and the incident).  Every student that is going to be expelled is given due process.  It is not a decision left up to a single person.

Of the two incidents, only the first one seems to be anything close to a true zero tolerance issue.  If the rules state that a dress code violation results in a violation, then the student is wrong.  Obviously, I would agree that expelling a student for a dress code violation is wrong, but there is no mention of expulsion in that example.

The first incident could lead to expulsio, if indeed that is what is going to eventually happen in this case.  I couldn't say either way what the result is/was going to be in that case.  I would ultimately think that he would be returned to school.  However, that is only based on the sparse information given in that case.  

Zero tolerance policies are in place to protect people from potential safety issues and potential litigation.  Are some true zero tolerance policies overboard?  Probably.  However, only one of your examples is close to what I would call a true zero tolerance policy.

Anyways, I am not going to get into a debate with you over this.  Your mind is made up just as mine is.  If you don't like it, get involved in a school district and make an effort to change it.

Offline Tarmac

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zero tolarance policies
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2003, 01:25:58 AM »
In general, zero tolerance policies, three strikes rules, mandatory arrest laws, and anything else that removes the discretion of reasonable human beings is a bad idea.  These laws are passed to address occasional exceptional circumstances; they generally cause even more exceptional circumstances than they deal with.

Offline capt. apathy

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zero tolarance policies
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2003, 03:05:27 AM »
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Keep in mind that suspension is not the same as expulsion and that any academic work that a student misses while on suspension for a disciplinary matter is allowed to be made up (i.e. missing tests and homework while not in school).


maybe where you live.  in the schools I attended, and in all the schools my children attended(or are attending now).  a suspension is an unexcused absence and it's up to the discression of the teacher as to if the work or tests can be made up (usually not in highschool, more leanent in lower grades).

I had quite a bit of experience with suspensions in highschool and inschool suspensions (or detentions) where considered excused absenses and could be made up, but if you where banned from school property and functions you where generally out of luck.

the problem with these policies is they remove thought.  in the first example the girl was having a asthma attack and couldn't find her meds, the other kid knew her well (was her boyfriend after all), he knew they where on the same medication, that a Dr had proscribed that medication, and that he had it and she needed it.  at the very least he saved her from an uncomfortable attack and at the worst he could very well have saved her life.  he should be comended for quick thinking not punished for using his wits.

it's not as if he was sharing a vicodin perscription with a budy who claimed a headache, but the school is treating it as if he did.  any reasonable person can see the difference in the situation but a zero tolarance policy just says don't think, suspend them.

maybe one of the major problems with our public education system is that more and more it tends to discourage individual thought in particular and thinking in general.

btw- we have the same type of zero tolorance drug policys here.  they won't allow my daughter to keep tums in her purse for heartburn.  but to recieve a bit of extra cash from advertisers, the schools sent sample packs home with elementarty school students (all students k-5), these had coupons for lots of products and many samples, at least 5 of these samples where OTC drugs labled 'keep away from children'  but aparently 'zero tolorance' only is aplied to children, when adults who should know better make a mistake and "deliver a dangerous drug" they are much more understanding as none of the administrators who set up the deal or the teachers who delivered the drugs recieved any sort of suspensions or discipline of any kind.  what kind of an example do they expect to be when they punish kids for not being able to live upto a standard that they can't even reach.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2003, 03:15:33 AM »
Gosh, am I glad that everyting happens as discreet incidences in time with no context.  Cripes.

:rolleyes:

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2003, 06:07:00 AM »
You misspelled 'Tolerance' :mad: :mad:
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Offline Mini D

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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2003, 07:45:48 AM »
LOL!

Guys... just a word of advice... don't argue with Mathman on this one.  He's got a bit more experience than those who just went to school or read articles.

And... he's a complete tard.

MiniD

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2003, 08:37:52 AM »
seems more like examples of gutless, unimaginitve administrators than failures of zero tolerance policies to me.

A good example of benifiets of a zero tolerance policy is that of my job.   besides being assured that there will be far less loadies to deal with.... we get paid extra.   they had to install an "on call" program because of zero tolerance... when the city called employees in the middle of the night to handle some miserable emergency... all you had to do was say... "sorry, love to step out in the rain and wind and help but I had a couple of beers before I went to bed."   Now they have to pay people to stay sober the week they are on call.
lazs

Offline capt. apathy

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zero tolarance policies
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2003, 09:44:35 AM »
Quote
Gosh, am I glad that everyting happens as discreet incidences in time with no context. Cripes.



yep, but to be fair, thanks to zero tolorance policies context doesn't matter.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2003, 10:10:21 AM »
Mathman is right. There are hidden expulsion laws that even prohibit schools from disallowing makeup work from expulsions if the child has completed a portion of the term. Put in simple terms, the child cannot be excluded from the benefits they accrued up to the expulsion. For example, if a child was expelled the day before a final exam, the child will be allowed to take the exam and pass the class.

Zero tolerance laws happen in all aspect of society because society has become very adept at manipulating rules. People will attempt to argue out of every situation. Ironically, Lazs himself provides an example- knowing the full intent of the zero tolerance law workers exploit a clause to circumvent their duty.

It's impossible to make a rule for every possible situation, yet... if there isn't an established rule for a situation, parents will argue there should have been a rule. Zero tolerance rules provide blanket coverage, and only work if they truly are zero tolerance. The second an exception is made, the rule is ineffective because, you guessed it, the next parent of a child in violation will dutifully point out you've made an exception in the past.

Education isn't alone in this...

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2003, 03:16:36 PM »
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
yep, but to be fair, thanks to zero tolorance policies context doesn't matter.


Sorry I wasn't clear in my sarcasm, that's exactly what I mean.  And of course context should matter.  

But after reading Kieran's explanation, I understand the reasoning behind it better.  But, if parents are going to be stuipid ultra melons, the school board has to do something like this I suppose.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2003, 03:19:15 PM by Thrawn »

Offline capt. apathy

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zero tolarance policies
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2003, 03:24:54 PM »
ah, I see.  I misunderstood.  I thought you where saying the examples I provided didn't give enough context.

you'd think I'd have picked up on your sarcasm as much as I use sarcasm myself. :)