Author Topic: Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!  (Read 1208 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« on: November 09, 2003, 11:43:34 PM »
Awesome!

 With Beta2 and Beta3, I naturally assumed that the gunnery modelling wasn't finished, and the drones probably didn't have any "hit registry" on the wings, and only on the fuselage.

 Until now!

 I found out that the drones, can actually be hit anywhere, and there aren't any places where just bullets go through!

 The gunnery was so unlike from what I've seen in initial Beta or AH1, that it seemed to me the bullets just went through without hits, so I just assumed it was a beta issue. Well, it turns out that when shot from close enough, and really accurately, getting hits on those thin trailing edges of the wings, are indeed possible.  

 I was fascinated by this and did some more experimenting.

 I placed myself behind a P-51 drone in a Spit5, and peppered the thing with .303s. I found that it was very difficult for me to get salvos of continuous hits on the mark. Only a few of what I fired would hit the plane - and most usually, only one side of the guns fired would hit the plane.

 "What the heck?" I was frustrated.. it felt like some streams of bullets always missed. I'd see two groups of hit sprites when I was real close, and totally parallel to the target's bank angle.. but in most cases, two streams from both wings never connected in a single spot. I thought, "this, definately means the hit registering process is not finished.."

 And then it suddenly hit me. I had my convergence at 400 yards for both the cannons and the MGs, like I did in AH1 !

 In AH1, the difference in planes with wing armament never really bothered me, except in the rare cases of P-38 and the Mossie, where the centralized armament really showed difference in accuracy and firepower.

 But frankly, I think that's only because these planes had exceptionally powerful and accurate weapons grouped together on the center line - Hispano and the .50 all in the center, in the case of the P-38.

 In the other cases, I never had difficulties with shooting in the wing-armed Spit, compared to the centerline 109, be it 100 yards or 500 yards. The Spit was always easier to shoot with, since convergence, or differences in armament carrying styles, never really bothered to show itself in AH1 - whereas, ease of maneuvering always paid off.

 Well, it seems that's a bit different now in AH2.

 As the thought crossed my mind, I (with some excitement from expectation) went back to the hangar, changed the Spit5 convergence to 150 yards. Tried the same thing again, saddling behind a P-51 drone at close ranges and fired away.

 Well, it was definately easier!! A lot more rounds began to connect, and the hits were more grouped together. And number of the "streams of bullets that seem to run astray" was reduced drastically. Wow, convergence makes quite a difference in AH2!

 So I tried the same experiment with the 109 - shooting at close ranges with different convergences. The difference in convergence didn't really show. The difference from the Spit5 testing, was that the 109, when shot at accurately, connected all fired rounds to a single point regardless of convergence.

 ...

 I don't know if anything changed in modelling ballistics, but the recent changes of Beta2 and 3, in the 'gunnery feel', seems very good. Mid, long range shots seem incredibly harder, and snapshots also seem harder.

 As I wrote in prior post about AH2 Beta gunnery, I'm no crackshot. This could be all placebo, or it might be changed in the final relelase - but currently, I like the gunnery aspect I see in Beta2 and Beta3.

 Seeing two streams of tracer smoke pass left and right side of the drone's fuselage, because you were shooting at 70 yards distance, when the set convergence out too far.. was a very cool experience!

 ...


 So HT, just what exactly were the changes?? I'm not interested in influencing any decisions or arguing. I'm just curious. :)

 Did the hit zone become smaller? Or maybe the dispersion became less??? Or could it be the change of visible tracer size influences gunnery this much??


ps) By the way, I saw how CV ack was firing now. No more yellow laser bars - but, bright white flashes of tracer rounds firing at the drones.. looks really cool!!


 Thumbs up! :aok

Offline mos

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2003, 12:42:52 AM »
As a P-38 pilot, may I just say:

Offline Purzel

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2003, 12:52:22 AM »
Yep, noticed this too. I'm quite sure this will bring a drastically decrease in long range kills. OK, with aP38 you still have good chances, but if you actually have to hit the plane, it wont be as easy as before.

I'm very interested to see what changes in gameplay this brings.

Offline Wilbus

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2003, 01:49:08 AM »
Changes sounds exelent, haven't tested much my self but will do it today.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline BenDover

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2003, 02:07:46 AM »
Cool no more spray and pray dweebs shooting my wings off from d1.1

Offline mold

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Re: Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2003, 03:42:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
I don't know if anything changed in modelling ballistics, but the recent changes of Beta2 and 3, in the 'gunnery feel', seems very good. Mid, long range shots seem incredibly harder, and snapshots also seem harder.


Good news! :aok   The less power to the air quakers, the better.

Offline jodgi

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2003, 11:08:41 AM »
I'm also curious to see the gameplay changes this will bring.

Now, in AH1 it is seldom easy to disengage from a fight, as the bogey may be able to take your tail off from long distance. Maybe the new gunnery will make it possible to disengage in the fashion that we read about in war stories?

It certainly feels different. It reminds me of IL2 gunnery. I've had a couple of good fights in IL2 where in the end we were both damaged (nothing critical) and disengaged, out of ammo. I bet that people will feel strongly in both directions on this. It could lower the kill numbers and AH2 may feels less actionpacked as a result. I look forward to the changes, and I'm anxious to see how the different planes will perform. As an example: The FM changes in the 109G10 could possibly make it less popular, as it is a challenge to fly in the low speed regime.

Maybe it won't be possible to take out an engine from behind anymore? That is one of my major issues with the current gunnery, it doesn't seem realistic.

I think we're in for a treat!

Offline Octavius

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2003, 11:17:01 AM »
hehe, I think the P38 will see a new era of dominance for those with torque-aphobia :)  ... and the gunnery may be easier
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Offline jodgi

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2003, 11:42:25 AM »
While I'm at it....

I'm worried too, what if my current EZ mode plane, the P51B, loses it's edge? As it is now I never miss 2 extra MG's and only benefit from the B's excellent maneuvering performance.

I think the 190A5 will have an improved position in AH2, being the balanced bundle it is with decent maneuverability and excessive cannon ammo load.

Offline SlapShot

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2003, 12:07:06 PM »
Interesting observations Kweassa on the gun convergence.

As far as gunnery and hit sprites, the jury is still out as far as I am concerned.

In beta 3, firing at the drones does result in hit sprites, but no visible damage (from what I see) until the plane just vaporizes. I realize that HT hasn't turned on the complete damage model yet, but its hard to realize the damage incurred from any distance until the complete the damage model is instituted.

I am anticipating a strong impact on gameplay due to both the new Flight Model and new Damage Model. Things that worked for us before, will not work for us anymore and conversely, things that didn't work before will work for us now.

As an example, I can't tell you how many times I have raked a plane from stem to stern in a crossing scissors or a snapshot, only to have the plane fly off as if nothing happened. I am hopefull that these types of scenarios will change for the better.
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Offline BenDover

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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2003, 12:18:43 PM »
That either due to network lag and packet loss resulting in rubber bullets, which can't be fixed; or you're using low caliber guns, which can be fixed by either switching to cannons and/or learning to aim at something vital...

Offline SlapShot

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2003, 02:28:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BenDover
That either due to network lag and packet loss resulting in rubber bullets, which can't be fixed; or you're using low caliber guns, which can be fixed by either switching to cannons and/or learning to aim at something vital...


No rubber bullets here ... they die very quicky when I finally saddle in on their 6.

Firing both .303s and 20mm hispanos at less than D 100 from prop to tail and seeing a stream of hit sprites from prop to tail should result in hitting something vital ... dont'cha think  ?
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Offline JB73

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2003, 02:44:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BenDover
That either due to network lag and packet loss resulting in rubber bullets
how in beta (only offline)??
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline BenDover

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2003, 05:17:39 PM »
He's on about ah1.


dolt :p

Offline Kaz

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Gunnery and Tracers in Beta2 and 3!
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2003, 11:33:48 AM »
With the new damage display model hopefully all of this will be more accurately simulated. btw is the damage model itself being reworked, can't recall if this was listed or not.