Author Topic: Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?  (Read 6390 times)

Offline Sandman

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2003, 12:15:21 PM »
In the history of the planet can you identify two countries with free trade between them that went to war against each other?
sand

Offline ravells

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2003, 12:40:44 PM »
It seems to me that if the US and Europe want to maintain their current standards of living, then they will have no choice but to continue down the consumerist road they set out on.

Like it or not, we have our lovely lifestyles in no small part because others are earning a pittance by growing cash crops to fill our supermarkets or working in sweatshops making the the clothing we wear. It means that we can buy more things more cheaply.

There has been a steady shift of manufacturing jobs (and more recently service oriented jobs) to the 'third world' for a number of years now. As Ra rightly points out, this has been accellerated by a hitherto unavailable labour market and an improvment in communications technology.

The response in the west has been for for people to take up employment in the service sector, but this sector is not large enough to accomodate all (particularly those who are too old to learn new skills) so we end up with a growing underclass in the west many of whom are employed in 'dead end' jobs, flipping burgers or working as sales assistants in supermarkets.

Set against this, is the constant bombardment that we receive through every possible form of media to buy things we don't really need and to consume for the sake of consumption. In order to do so, we need to make our money stretch further so that takes us back to cheap imports again.

I think that Ra is a little naive if he believes that the CEOs of companies which subcontract the production of their goods to third world countries have in every case, no idea about labour conditions in the factories that those goods are being produced in. Very often, the capital that has gone into building those factories are from the corporation itself which will also be closely involved in quality control of the goods produced.

Nor do I agree with the inference that Ra may have intended (if not, then I apologise) that outsourcing production to third world countries does the poor in those countries a great deal of good.  Many of these countries are up to their necks in debt to the world bank and 'strings' that come with the loans given to those countries are that they produce cash crops and mass produced goods for the benefit of western consumers. As a result, people who were previously self sufficient to a greater degree are no longer so. Wouldn't it be more sensible if they were growing food from themselves, rather than cheap coffee for us? To add insult to injury, companies like Monsanto have used their muscle to ensure that farmers (for example in India, and I would guess in the US although I don't know this for sure) grow crops with a 'terminator' gene spliced into it, so that they have to keep going back to Monsanto to buy more seed rather than being able to produce new seed themselves.

Nowadays, if the workers in an 'enterprise zone' (for which read 'sweatshop') agitate for better rights, the corporation simply threatens to up sticks and move its production to another state - there are lots to choose from. For a good discussion about this, read a book called 'No Logo' by Naomi Klien.

Abuse of workers rights is also alive and well in the USA, as Dnil said. The meat packing industry is a terrible culprit in this area and the Republican party has actively assisted it. Why? Because the meat packing industry is one of the biggest doners to the Republican party's coffers.

It's all twisted, and it all stinks, but that's just the way it is.

Ravs

Offline miko2d

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Re: Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2003, 01:03:26 PM »
Urchin: I understand that they are great for the corporations.  They can move their factories out of the country, get foreigners to do the work Americans had been doing and pay them in pennies and nickels instead of dollars, and then sell the finished product back in the U.S. and make an even larger profit then they had been.

 First, most of the corporations are publicly owned. Our savings, pensions, etc. are invested in those corporations, so any increase in profit is good for us.

 Second, as the unusually high profits attract more companies, the competition between them drives the prices down. That means that the real wages for all US consumers increase. Such increase in real wages allows employers to cut or not raise nominal wages and still leaves the employees better off. With lower nominal wages the price of the US products can be lowered.
 With prices, US products become more competitive abroad.

 More foreign demand due to lower prices and more domestic demand due to surplus of money in the consumer's hands cause domestic production to increase and absorb workers who's jobs were lost to foreign labor.
 As a result. total level of production and consumption in US uncreases.

 Ain't it great?


ravells: If people were to boycott goods made in sweatshops...

 Then the workers of those sweatshops would retire to life or leisure and luxury or most likely starve. I am not sure which...  :rolleyes:


ra: There are two reasons we are taking such a big hit now: 1) the cold war kept a billion people out of the global job market. Now that it is over, those people are available to work for western corporations at very low wages. 2) telecommunications improvements make it easier than ever to do business internationally, bringing probably another billion low-wage workers into the global job market.

 Those are not the real reasons. The real reason is that Federal Reserve keeps priniting dollars and foreign governments keep buying them. That prevents market adjustments to the purchasing power that would balance the trade and investment. As money leaves the country and does not come back, it should appreciate in value in this country and drop in value outside - thus making US products and labor more attractive to foreigners and foreign products less attractive to US consumers.

 
Animal: he awesome corporation daddy worked for "employed" 11 year olds for 9 hours a day harvesting peanuts in a sunny field for maybe a quarter a day.

 Those 11 year olds must be living in pretty terrible conditions if such job was the best option available to them.

 miko

Offline BigGun

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2003, 01:27:01 PM »
Free Trade=more efficient use of resources & lower prices for consumers

Offline Animal

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Re: Re: Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2003, 01:35:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Animal: he awesome corporation daddy worked for "employed" 11 year olds for 9 hours a day harvesting peanuts in a sunny field for maybe a quarter a day.

 Those 11 year olds must be living in pretty terrible conditions if such job was the best option available to them.

 miko [/B]


Is that some twisted sort of excuse to validate what is being done?

Quite simple really. You either work for the cartel, or you work for the "legitimate" company.

Both pay the same, and in both you run the same risks of violence. And there is hell to pay if they even attempt to try and organize a workers union.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 01:38:03 PM by Animal »

Offline gofaster

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2003, 01:49:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
In the history of the planet can you identify two countries with free trade between them that went to war against each other?


Loaded question.  For there to be free trade, there would already have to be a feeling of "we're one and the same" which would obfuscate the need for war to begin with.

Offline Sandman

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2003, 01:53:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster
Loaded question.  For there to be free trade, there would already have to be a feeling of "we're one and the same" which would obfuscate the need for war to begin with.


That sounds like a good thing to me. :)
sand

Offline gofaster

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2003, 02:05:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
You can't build a wall around an economy.  "Greedy" corporations wouldn't have to move overseas if "greedy" consumers didn't prefer cheaper products.


You hit it right on the head.

You also mentioned, in another post, that corporations aren't necessarily an evil entity and I would agree with that.

Too many times, headlines say things like "AT&T Violates Do Not Call List" or "Merrill Lynch Defrauded Investors" or "IBM Blamed for Cancer In Workers".  Corporations don't make decisions. Corporations don't have a brain.  Corporations are organizations composed of people.  Somebody in that organization made a decision and hid behind the corporate mantel of indemnification.  It was the person(s) who made a decision to do something that is the culprit. I've never believed that fines against corporations for violations, such as environmental damage, have accomplished anything.  Rather, its the follow-on criminal charges that have the most effect.

Corporations aren't evil.  Its the people within them that are.

Slavery is a global issue and is not limited to overseas countries.  Just ask the fruit pickers who were held under barbed wire and armed guards by the Ramos Brothers.

Corporations send jobs overseas because they have to answer to the bottom line demanded by shareholders.  Nowadays, most of those shareholders are people with their cash in mutual funds who don't really know that they're shareholders.  Others own such a small percentage of stock that their voting strength is extremely weak.  With the loss of company-sponsored pensions, more people have had to become shareholders in order to try and build a retirement plan for themselves.  So don't expect a big outcry if sending a job overseas means their stock portfolio goes up.

Like I said, corporations aren't evil.  Its the people within them.  If we want to persecute the owners of the corporations, we'll have to persecute ourselves.

I would expect that this "send our customer service operations overseas" trend is an experiment with limited gain.  I would suspect that some corporations will change their minds about the operations within the next 5 to 10 years and bring them back to the US.

One more thing: not only are corporations trying to find cheaper labor overseas, they're trying to figure out how to lower their labor costs here in the US by reducing overtime pay.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 02:17:56 PM by gofaster »

Offline miko2d

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Re: Re: Re: Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2003, 02:20:34 PM »
Animal, I want to make one thing clear.
 If some people or an organisation is engaged in violence, coercion and illegal acts, I would never condone it.

 That being said, let's consider a situation:
 I have saved some money with my labor and thrift. There is an undeveloped country where people live in squalor. I am not responcible for them living in such conditions.

 I may decide to take my money and invest it into a factory in their country. I would have to offer someone a price for a piece of land and a building that would be better than any other offer he has so he sells it to me.
 Then I would offer jobs to the workers on conditions attractive enough so that they would be willing to drop whatever else they are doing and come working for me. If I guess correctly, I would offer exactly as high (or as low) salary so that just enough barely qualified workers show up as I have places. Let's say I get a 100 grade C workers for 100 peso each.

 After that I will offer to sell that product domestically at lower price than such products are sold here in order to underprice the established brands but if I guess it correctly, at as high a price as I can to sell all my products.

 If I guess correctly, both myself and my workers would be better off because we voluntarily acted on our preferences and exchnanged our previous situation for more satisfactory one. That means an 11-year old does not have to work 18-hour days doing hard physical labor in the fields with no guarantee that the harvest will result from his efforts, but will have an assured 16-hour a day indor job with much less physical exertion and moskito screens on the windows for more money paid weekly guaranteed.

 Now, I may have profits left from my operation. Or some other entrepreneur may learn about my profits and decide to invest - it makes no difference. Those profits I would invest into the building of a second shop in the same country. Since at the price I offered previously I could only get 100 grade C workers, I would have to offer higher wage to all my workers - old one as well as new, otherwise the experienced workers from my old factory would just switch to my (or competitor's) new factory. So I now offer pay 105 peso and 100 grade B workers show up. Grade B is better than grade C, by the way, because now I will get workers at 105 peso that would not be willing to work for 100 peso for me.

 Obviously I will have to sell all my products at lower price than before so that I sell all of them. I get smaller profit per unit of capital invested

 If I had been somehow forced to hire workers at 105, my initial capital would have been sufficient to hire only 95 workers. At that salary, 200 people would have shown up - 100 grade C and 100 grade B, but I would obviously hire only 95 of grade B, thus leaving the most desperate people unemployed and improving the lot of those who were better off enyway. Which is exactly how the wage laws benefit people who are better off at the expense of those who are more desperate and will not gain employment.

 We repeat this process over an over again, lowering the prices domesically - which means raising real wages of US consumers - and raisig the wages abroad.

 Some domestic workers displaced by my priducts will find better jobs that woudl open because I raised the real wages of the domestic workers. Some of those jobs will be producing goods for my foreign workers.
 At some poing the grade A workers will be getting paid so much that they will have investable savings just like I did in the beginning of this scenario. For instance they could stop sending their children (grade C) to work but would rather invest into their education.
 As the salaries raise, every peso earned by them will have lower marginal utility than the previous one, while every hour of leisure lost will have higher marginal utility than the prevous one. Once those two become equal, the worker will take one hour off his job rather than extra money - completely voluntarily. And I would have no choice but to accomodate him since otherwise he would go work for my competitor.
 Labor is a resource just like any other and if the price is not kept artificially high, there cannot be surplus of it. There will be competition for labor exactly like for any other factor of production.

 All in all, we have more total production between our two countries. Our domestic real wages and consumption would be growing while theirs would be growing even faster and unless the government puts a stop to it with mercantilist policies, we will all benefit and eventually the incomes gap would close.

 How is that scenario?

 miko

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2003, 02:38:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d


 How is that scenario?

 miko


Beautiful. :)

Well said miko - I'm glad you decided to invest the time to write these posts even though I dont think Urchin will be swayed.

Offline DmdNexus

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2003, 02:43:47 PM »
Wall-Mart is still Evil.... When they move in, they put the mom and pop stores out of business in hometown American by undersellling - even at a loss - every product mom and pop sells.

Once M&P are out of business, prices go up.

Sure Wall-Mart now employs the workers that used to farm the land where the Wall-Mart parking lot now is and probalby even pays better than M&P and the farmer did...

But gosh darn it... do they have to wear those bright blue aprons?

Next will be the company store...

You load 16 tons and whaddaya get
another day older and deeper in dept
Saint Peter don'tcha call me 'Cause-
I can't go...I owe my soul to the Company
Store

Offline miko2d

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GRUNHERZ: I'm glad you decided to invest the time to write these posts even though I dont think Urchin will be swayed.

 That would be unfortunate. He may join a protest campaign that will force a company to forego some profit, cause the US customers to pay a little bit more but will cause the desperate workers in developed country to starve and teh country to lose its chance to develop.

 Such people would not provide the necessary capital to those countries but would prevent those who are willing from offering such capital.
 One can talk till he is blue in the face about improving the lot of a worker, but the only way to do so is accumulation of more capital per worker.

 miko

Offline miko2d

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2003, 03:09:47 PM »
DmdNexus: Once M&P are out of business, prices go up.

 No they do not - because there is a K-Mart, and a whole slew of other competitors.

 miko

Offline mrblack

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2003, 03:20:22 PM »
If It's an American Company It should employ only Americans.
Sorry but thats the way I see it.
If these other countries want big companys to work for then build them:aok

Offline DmdNexus

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Someone tell me how "Free Trade Agreements" are a good thing?
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2003, 04:00:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
DmdNexus: Once M&P are out of business, prices go up.

 No they do not - because there is a K-Mart, and a whole slew of other competitors.

 miko


K-Mart is in bankruptcy - they filed last year...

Wall-Mart ran them out of business.....

Once the competition in a small town is gone... Wall-Mart prices go up.

Sears, and JC Pencies anchor them selves off of malls now.

Wall-Mart puts small businesses in small town America out of business - not talking about suburbia where there's other chain stores like K-mart.

It is the natural order of things... the big guys get bigger and the small guys get gobbled up... And then the last two big guys share the Coconut Cream pie (Pepsi and Coke).