Marshall Plan - hype or not?

[Westy]

"Sometimes it helps to have key industrial centers bombed to the ground. Germany got new factories with new tooling. France didn't."

 Also, France spent alot of $$$ rearming and got embroiled in Southeast Asia.  Germany didn't.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by crabofix
US was one of the countries that Pushed "Versille-treaty" through and was the loudest mouth, most unforgiven one in the crowd.

You're saying the US pushed for extreme reparations and neutering of German military post-WW1?

If I read that wrong, please correct me...

Surely you know of Woodrow Wilson's 14 points?  He pushed for reconciliation after World War I and not punishment.  

France was the biggest advocate for punishing the Germans post-WW1 with GB not far behind.  

Post-WW2 the western Allies learned the lesson and went the route of reconciliation and rebuilding.

[Dago]

while theres still possible to form a "democratic" goverment.

Now that is the funniest thing I have read here on this board in a long long time.  We leave Iraq now, they will form a democratic government all on their own.   What planet you on anyway?

If we just walk out right now, Saddam Hussein will reemerge, the Bathe party will take over again, and the slaughter will resume.

Geez, some just don't reallly have a clue.  Maybe listen to the average Iraqi citizen instead of so many slanted journalists??  Give it a shot for a change.

The US could have helped Spain by supporting a democratic government

Oh, you think we could/should have involved ourselves in Spains government and internal affairs?  Seems the opposite of so many of the other posts from outside the USA.  I guess Spain could not/should not control their own destiny?  Incapable you say?

the Marshall Plan was one of the key factors that strengthened the dictatorship of Franco in Spain.

How you made this huge jump I don't have a clue.  The Marshall plan did not include Spain.  Spain recieved no aid from the Marshall plan.  How do you make the jump from the Marshall plan helping some European nations to feed their people to our "failure" in Spain is beyond me.   Seems to me the Spanish failed themselves.

It might be worth noting that the Soviet Union was invited to join in with the Marshall plan but declined to do so.


dago

[Angus]

My country, Iceland, was not exactly war-torn, but still we received a generous sum from the Marshall programme.
Id did influence our economics drastically, booming them upwards.
Just a question though, did the British get any Marshall funds? I read somewhere that at least they are still paying for some of the armour they bought of the US in WW2.....

[crabofix]

Originally posted by Octavius
You're saying the US pushed for extreme reparations and neutering of German military post-WW1?

If I read that wrong, please correct me...

Surely you know of Woodrow Wilson's 14 points?  He pushed for reconciliation after World War I and not punishment.  

France was the biggest advocate for punishing the Germans post-WW1 with GB not far behind.  

Post-WW2 the western Allies learned the lesson and went the route of reconciliation and rebuilding.

Yes this is correct.

But later on, when the others wanted to "ease" the burdon put on Germany, US refused this and wanted to have it fullfilled.

[ra]

Originally posted by Boroda
1) Miko is from the Ukraine.

Heh heh, THE Ukraine.  Is that anywhere near Ukraine?

[miko2d]

Dago: - Same thing.

  Next you will call some southerner a "yankee"...


CyranoAH: Yep and the Marshall Plan was one of the key factors that strengthened the dictatorship of Franco in Spain.

 I doubt it did much - it seems too measly a sum to make any difference one way or another, even if it were aptly spent, which I doubt.


crabofix: The Marshal paln had great succes...

 Suuure... $6 billion / 40 million = $150 per person in 2002 money. Over the course of several years. That must have made all the difference, right...

 Oh, did you mean "great success" as being the cheapest piece of ego-stroking propaganda that is still effective?

 miko

[Kieran]

All I can say is that some of our foreign posters' vaunted "superior knowledge of history" is appalling. If you want to know why many Americans are sick of handing money out in aid, this is it.

Miko, you're going to take TWO samples and declare the Marshall Plan a failure? How smart is that? I know you know better, so you have to be trolling.

Boroda, you are the living embodiment of the USSR brainwashed commissar. I don't really mean to insult you, though it obviously must, but when I close my eyes and picture someone who would blindly defend that system of government, well, you're it. "No, the sky is not bloo, you foolish Ameddikun..." You have an amazing ability to ignore all manner of truth and historical fact. Marshall Plan a failure? LOL! It really sucks to be French, German, or Japanese right now, huh?

Crab, that is one convoluted path to blaming the US for WWII (via enforcing reparations forced by UK and France). I knew I could count on you, though. Good Lord, is there anything bad on this earth you can't blame America for?

[miko2d]

Kieran: Miko, you're going to take TWO samples and declare the Marshall Plan a failure? How smart is that? I know you know better, so you have to be trolling.

 I do not understand what you mean by "two samples". And I am not declaring Marshall Plan a failure. I do not know what else was involved besides the measly money grants.

 Even the money grants I would not declare a failure either. I am only saying there was too little money to make a perceptible difference for Germany.

 miko

[ra]

Back to your original post, the Marshall Plan may be hyped, but America's role in helping western Europe on its feet is not.  If the US had gone back to its pre-war neutrality you can bet that the France and the Germany and the Italy would have suffered the same economic conditions as the Ukraine.

ra

[Dago]

the measly money grants.

Wouldn't this fall into the "looking a gift horse in the mouth" category?


Miko, how about you expound a little on

1) Why did American even develop and institute a Marshall Plan?

2)  What did we owe anyone after the war?

3) What did we owe the recipients of aid that we had to give them aid?

4) What did we require in form of repayment?

5) What repayment did we actually recieve?

Why do you live in the USA if you find so many things wrong with it?  


And lastly, why don't you go back to the Ukraine where everything is so freaking wonderful?


dago

[Angus]

After being bombed back to the stone age, $150 per head DO matter.
As I understand how the Marshall plan worked, the money was used largely for reconstructing factories, facilities, etc. That creates jobs and production. The wheels of the economy start turning, - faster as they would have. There is no doubt the Marshall plan worked. In a way it may have been similar to Roosevelt's Big Deal, wheeling the USA out of the great depression. Now I wonder how many bucks per head was involved there.

[crabofix]

Originally posted by Kieran

Crab, that is one convoluted path to blaming the US for WWII (via enforcing reparations forced by UK and France). I knew I could count on you, though. Good Lord, is there anything bad on this earth you can't blame America for?

As always, you read between the lines, Kieran.
The total defeat and the humiliation of the versille treaty, did put enough disorder into German politics/economics, to let Hitler step up and take power.
Yes, the journey was long, but decades of depression, laid out a red carpet for a "strong" leader.
When WWII ended, the Marshalplan was set up to bring order into Germany and to help them build up thier country, not to repeat the same misstake again.
I am not blaming the US for WWII. But I am saying, the hard line on "Versille" brought the WWII. US supported the hard line.

Now, in Iraq, the Leader is not captured or killed. The Iraquis are humiliated by the US army. They where laying on the ground, but US just kept on kicking and are still kicking. Suddenly the Memory of Saddam´s brutal reign is watered out and he becomes a "national symbol" of resistance.

US did win the battle, but they lost the war. And instead of removing Saddam, they made him a hero. It is just a matter of time.

[GRUNHERZ]

Miko is merely opposed to it because he views it as a backwards social welfare program - thats why the example of French vs German productivity compared to the amount of money they recived as Marshall Aid..

[Batz]

Dago to answer all your question just look east. To understand Marshall look what happened in China. To prevent western Europe from embracing the communist Marshall knew something had to be done. We didn't just hand over money because we are the good guys. There was a direct economic benefit for the US as well as it helped keep western Europe from turning to Stalin.

As for the Soviets, Marshall concluded that they had decided to stall in the expectation that the spreading social disintegration would work to their benefit. Their attitude reminded Marshall of the 1944 proposal by Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau to break up and pastoralize Germany, and when he returned to Washington he reread then Secretary of War Henry Stimson’s vehement critique of the plan. It probably also reminded him of the Communist’s attitude during his 1946 mission to China.

Marshall’s second public address as Secretary of State came in an April 28 national radio speech on the Moscow Conference. Marshall still desired to avoid a rupture with the Soviet Union, but his optimism was rapidly waning. Europe, he asserted, needed American help for reconstruction and economic relief, and there must not be further delay on a German settlement. "Disintegrating forces are becoming evident. The patient is sinking while the doctors deliberate." He called for bipartisan unity on the reconstruction of Europe.

The Marshall plan  cost the American taxpayers $11,820,700,000 (plus $1,505,100,000 in loans that were repaid) over four years.

http://www.marshallfoundation.org/about_gcm/marshall_plan.htm#expenditures

In wasnt until '48 when the 1st of the money arrived.

http://www.marshallfoundation.org/about_gcm/marshall_plan.htm#summary

crabo do a search on wilson he didnt support the harsh treatment of the germans.