Author Topic: Marshall Plan - hype or not?  (Read 2736 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2003, 06:21:12 PM »
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Imagine the world outside outlaws the use of US dollars and all 35 trillion of them comes into US to buy anything. And our GDP is only about 10 trillion. That would be similar situation and we would ban all travel and transfer untill we replaced our currency with the new one.


According to the St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank, there is about 660 Billion in cash currently in circulation.
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Offline crabofix

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Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2003, 07:29:34 PM »
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Originally posted by Octavius


East Germans say jobs and needs were taken care of by the former eastern government and found no security with capitalism ( they actually have to work for the money now).  



I notice that you never visited the actully DDR. Never seen people work harder in the harbours then in DDR, during my travels on cargo ships around balticsea/north sea between 1984-1989.
You can call em what ever you want, but dont say they didnt work.

Then again, never seen a harder security check anywhere in the world either. All hands on deck, lining up with passport in hand and all currency, even pocket change was needed to account for.
The whole ship was search with dogs on arrival and departure.
Anywhere else, there was always bribes, like Poland and Russia, but God forbide, not in this country. Yes, I was pretty impressed, but still, I pity the poor people who had to live under this regime.

Offline miko2d

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Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2003, 09:41:02 AM »
miko: of US dollars and all 35 trillion of them comes into US to buy anything

Holden McGroin: According to the St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank, there is about 660 Billion in cash currently in circulation.

 I cannot understand the meaning of that statement in relation to what I said.
 If it's just an observation, it's OK, but could use an explanation of the terms to avoid being misleading.
 If it is ment as a refutal, it is not relevant since I was not talking about "cash" and not talking about "in circulation".

 Much of the tens of trillions of dollars held abroad are either not in the form of cash or not in the circulation.

 miko

Offline Kieran

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Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2003, 10:52:17 AM »
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Cute. First it was "fuel". Then it was "lubricant". Then we found out the engine was running full speed before the guy with a can -or rather a pipette - full of "lubricant" even showed up?


Speaking of changing stories...

The topic header suggests the Marshall plan didn't do anything in reality- which means it failed.

You said you didn't say it failed, and you are only discussing the economic aspect of the plan.

You then say the plan was intended to make America feel better about having contributed to WWII.

You then said the plan was just propaganda for the West.

I suppose if you totally disregard the message, intent, and actions of the US WRT the Marshall Plan, well, yeah, it was a failure. Still, I don't think you've landed on a particular point yet, and I'm waiting for it. You've given similar prepared statements on the topic on both boards, indicating you knew what you were going to say even before people responded.

Once again I say, "Get to the point".

Offline cpxxx

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Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2003, 11:07:16 AM »
In relation to the Marshall plan it is a bit much to attribute sinister motivations for the aid. At it's simplest it was a way of helping get Europe back on it's feet after the devastation and dislocation of war and secondly it was in America's interest to prevent any possible slide to communism which the chaos and confusion of the the post war situation might allow. It was also in Europe's interest not to fall into communism. Who can deny that?

In truth America came out of the war richer than before it started and not materially damaged. It was not in their interest to allow Europe to fester. On the contrary the economic well being of America depended on the rest of the world having plenty of free market economies to trade with. That is still true.

Boroda in his natural tendency to favour his own country has allowed this to cloud his judgement.

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Yes, it was OUR decision to be a target for planned agression since 1946. It was our plan to arm instead of reconstructing what was left of European USSR. It was our decision to have B-52s armed with H-bombs on combat patrol over Europe 24/7. Did you understand what you wrote?... Confrontation in Europe was deliberately grown by the Western "allies". Check historical calendars. We only answered on your hostile moves towards your twisted version of "democracy". And we definetly didn't want to pay another price for your "assistance" - we had enough expenses since 1941.


That if I may say sounds like a piece of pure Soviet propaganda.

Notwithstanding genuine fears of western aggression in the Soviet Union stoked at least in part by the party appartus because it suited them. Like Al Qaeda and Arab governments today who use the same method to deflect people from thinking about just who keeps them in ignorance and poverty.

People in the Soviet Union were never in any danger from the west except perhaps the risk that they free them from the tyranny they lived under. Even you Boroda cannot deny that. Only now in recent years do you have the beginnings of the freedom and prosperity, flawed though it is,  that we in the west take for granted. The Soviet Union and communism in general had nothing to offer in that regard.  If you don't believe that ask anyone who lived in Hungary, Czechslovakia, Poland etc etc.

Comparsions to`1941 were not valid. The Nazis were a threat to everyone. Fear of German resurgence was common in Russia then and even now. It may surprise some Americans to konw that in Europe fear of Germany is often more prevalent than fear of a Communist Russia.  So much so that at re-unification the German chancellor felt moved to state that they wanted a European Germany not a German Europe.

Our 'twisted' verson of democracy worked a lot better than your one party non democracy and the lack of freedom to  criticise your leaders or even leave the country. The biggest threat from America and the west was to the cosy little world of the party faithful who milked the system to their own benefit while keeping the workers in their place.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 11:15:05 AM by cpxxx »

Offline miko2d

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Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2003, 12:07:45 PM »
Kieran: Speaking of changing stories...
 The topic header suggests the Marshall plan didn't do anything in reality- which means it failed.
 You said you didn't say it failed, and you are only discussing the economic aspect of the plan.
 You then said the plan was just propaganda for the West.


 Fair criticism. I have an explanation though that at least indicates my truthfullness if not the good knowlege of the subject.

 I had an impression that Marshall Plan was all about the money grants and when I looked up the information on the size of those grants, I did not see any evidence to the contrary.
 That's why I called money grants the "Marshall Plan" and argued their ineffectiveness.
 When posters confronted me with the statements that there was more to the MP than just grants, I promptly admitted my lack of knowlege and also admitted that the other aspects of the Plan unknown to me could have been more successfull - if they existed.
 Berlin Airlift was certainly successfull and many people believe it was a part of the Marshall Plan.

 Everything else I posted on the Marshall Plan I've got off google after I've posted the threads. I did copy from one thread to another on both boards as the discussions are substantially the same.
 I wish I had been better prepared on the topic of the Marshall Plan, but believe me - there was no prepatation here.

You've given similar prepared statements on the topic on both boards, indicating you knew what you were going to say even before people responded.

 I hope my previous paragraph cleared things. I do often have more knowlege on a subject than I put in my first post, unfortunately not in this case.


Still, I don't think you've landed on a particular point yet, and I'm waiting for it.

???
 Marshal Plan monetary grant was an insignificant overhyped political action.
 Other aspects of the Marshall Plan could have been great success. Considering that most socialist economic projects (those conducted by the government rather than free enterprise) fail miserably, it does not seem likely, but I just have to plead ignorance here.

 miko

Offline airguard

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Re: Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2003, 12:11:47 PM »
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Originally posted by miko2d
With all that Marshall Plan being thrown around, I just had to see what the heck it was all about. Sure - it was mostly hype.

Germany has to thank the Marshall Plan for a total of almost $1.4 billion received in aid. In addition, while the German government was receiving help from the Marshall Plan, it was still obliged to make reparations and restitution payments that amounted to well over half the funds received from the United States from the Marshall Plan. ( $1.4 billion - a measly $12.4 billion in 2002 money of which over half was paid right back?)
 France received a grant of over $2.7 billion from the Marshall Plan - nearly twice as much as Germany - but it still took France 30 years to reach the economic level Germany arrived at within less then 15 years

 When looking at these statistics and the fact that it took Germany only half as long as France to reach a comparable economic level of develop, we must ask ourselves what caused the German "economic miracle". It is clear that the Marshall plan was not the major contributor to Germany's rapid economic growth.

 miko


The plan worked as it should in Norway (wich had nothing left after nazi leadership for almoust 5 yeaurs) , it brought us up form poorness to rich in about 30 years (well it helped us the first 5 years as a start and from there the Norwegian worked hard and togheter to bring us the wealth we have today :) )

And another thing it helped us getting rid of the commies (that was a big ghost after 1945 for sure), thank god for that.

Dont forget Norway was one of the poorest countries in Europe from the 1800`s to 1945.

The plan wasnt all money it was also political and worked well, and that is good.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 12:19:10 PM by airguard »
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Offline Octavius

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Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2003, 01:34:28 PM »
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Originally posted by crabofix
I notice that you never visited the actully DDR. Never seen people work harder in the harbours then in DDR, during my travels on cargo ships around balticsea/north sea between 1984-1989.
You can call em what ever you want, but dont say they didnt work.

Then again, never seen a harder security check anywhere in the world either. All hands on deck, lining up with passport in hand and all currency, even pocket change was needed to account for.
The whole ship was search with dogs on arrival and departure.
Anywhere else, there was always bribes, like Poland and Russia, but God forbide, not in this country. Yes, I was pretty impressed, but still, I pity the poor people who had to live under this regime.


You may be right.  What I heard was secondary sources and west German opinions mainly.  But I'm sure each side had it's share of lazy workers just as anywhere else in the world.
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Offline Kieran

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Marshall Plan - hype or not?
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2003, 03:00:37 PM »
Miko-

It felt kinda like you had this laid out in prepared steps, you know... feeding it to us in bits. That lead me to believe we were being lead to a conclusion. If that's not the case, my apologies.